Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

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Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby YeezyMozart » Tue Mar 11, 2014 12:41 pm

Hey so anyone that plays a lot knows how important precision shots are in combat with special characters.

So my question is when you roll a 2 with psychotropic grenades you auto hit with all attacks.

Do you then loose the ability to use precision hit models? Or can you just roll on the side to see how many "6" you would get?

looking for opinions?
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:46 pm

I say since no roll to hit is made, you lose the chance for a precision shot.
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby YeezyMozart » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:14 pm

Thats RAW for sure but I am not sure I like the ruling even if I wasn't playing with psyco nades its silly.

I think you should roll on the side to see how many "6" you get but.... I also want to screw Grey Knights players with psyco nades.
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:54 pm

If you are going to create a to hit roll from an auto hit just to see if you get precision shots, then you have to suffer any consequences of said to hit role. Such as Gabriel Seth's rule that any to hit roll of one against him and he gets a str 4 attack back.

You can't have it both ways where an auto hit effect is rolled for a benefit and not for the consequence. Because of this, and any subsequent rules inconsistencies, I say the auto hit grenades do not allow to hit rolls of any kind both good and bad.
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby DaGrippster » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:30 pm

I agree. If you automatically hit, there are no to hit rolls and no chance for precision shots. That step is just skipped.
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby YeezyMozart » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:34 am

This make no sense to me Fred your argument is that in order to update the rules so that psyco 2 plays in 6th edition without causing issues the grey knight player must pay a consequence? This is just nonsense and your reference to Seth does not set precedence for this example.

Rolling a "2" is the best roll and it changes a fundamental part of the rules. It denies characters the ability to use precision strikes. I am being penalized for rolling something that "Rules as Intended" is meant to be the best result. Since the codex came out before precision strikes they where not in scope when this rule was written.

Assuming I hit with everything automatically would be the same as saying this turn in combat rolls of "1" also hit your opponent. Therefore, logically all dice rolls would hit and there would be no need to roll so "All attacks auto hit would essentially be the same thing".

Now that precision strikes are in the game I think the player should have the chance to roll to see if they did in fact get any precision hits.

It is RAW that since no roll is made there is no precision I agree with this 100% but that doesn't mean thats right its not updated and I don't think it is in anyway rules as intended.

Since we all play this fluid dynamic game things of this nature are bound to come up and we are expanding the scope of the game at this point. A clarification is needed for sure and I don't care either way but I am curious to see what Adepticon Council rule since I brought it up to them.

Its is simple to say no roll no precision I am looking for logical arguments against the idea of allowing it or not allowing it. Fred's argument to get something you must pay a consequence just doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Mar 12, 2014 10:52 am

There are many rules which change as we go through editions and units and abilities which used to work great don't work so great anymore. It's the price of having a 5th edition codex in 6th edition. Go tell the Dark Eldar players their portal lets units assault coming out of it. It used to work that way, but in this new edition it doesn't. Yes Dark Eldar portal players had to pay a consequence with the advent of 6th edition rules. Psychotrope grenades have to pay a consequence in this new edition also.

I'm sorry you can't follow the logic of Seth's rule and precision strikes. If you roll to hit Seth in combat and roll a 1, he gets to hit you in the face for free.

If you roll to hit with a character and roll a 6 you get to allocate the wound.

Both rules work when a 'to hit' roll is made. One helps the person attacking and one hurts the person attacking. They are two sides of the same coin. Tell me how your interpretation that auto hits really means all rolls of 1 hit wouldn't allow Seth to slap face with each roll of 1 in your example?

Tell me where the psychotrope grenade rule says all to hit rolls are really rolls higher than 1. It doesn't. You added that. You auto hit with no roll being made. No roll means no extra benefits from rolling 6's and no penalties for rolling 1's. If this nerfs the grenades so much, then don't play them.


This whole line of thought really smells of adding sentences to the rules in order to get a better benefit for your Adepticon Team army list. Why do I have that feeling?
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby YeezyMozart » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:17 am

Has nothing to do with team its my singles list that it could potentially impact on like a small chance I need precision and happen to roll a 2. :D And its best to know now instead of on the event day.

Thanks for elaborating we are all not as quick as you sir. 8)

I get why you bring up Seth now.

Your saying that in the past when rolling a "2" players did not roll to see if they got a "1" which could hurt them in the example with Seth or back in the day with Dark Eldar Vehicle wargear that use to do the same thing.

I think that is a great precedent to bring up actually. I wonder how they ruled that? So was their a FAQ ruling that said since no dice are rolled no "1"s are rolled? Cause I would agree that you would need to make these rolls still....

I think the logical way of looking at "All attacks hit is "1"s hit" I mean I am not right necessarily. It could be all misses are re-rolled until all attacks are hits... I am not sure but its just a guess and if that is assumed to be correct rolling the few dice your IC's have would take a few seconds and on the off chance you get a "6" you could attempt to use it wisely.
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby seahawk » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:24 am

It's just like Poison and Killing Blow in WHFB.

Poison causes an auto-wound on a To-Hit roll of 6.

Killing Blow causes instant death on a To-Wound roll of 6.

If you have both special rules and you score a Poison wound, you don't roll to wound at all, and that means you miss out on a potential Killing Blow.


So, auto-hits mean no precision strikes.
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby DaGrippster » Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:30 am

I think you're reading too much into it. There has never been a case in the rules where something automatically happens, yet you still roll to see what "might" have happened if the results weren't automatic.

As far as rules updates and editions go, take the example of power weapons for older armies. If a weapon says it ignores armor saves, then it ignores armor saves until an FAQ is released and gives that weapon an AP value. That's how RAW works, regardless of what you think the rules should say. Playing by rules as intended is a dangerous precedent and unnecessary.
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:04 pm

To be honest I don't think it was ever ruled on for Seth and the grenades because while the grenades were common, Seth wasn't. Throw it up to Yakface or Chris on the Adepticon thread and see what they say. If your list is for Adepticon their opinion is the only one that matters.
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby 00Enron » Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:08 am

I would have to agree with Fred and Tony.


#2 Psychonades-"all attacks hit automatically and your opponent is reduced to 1 attack per model".

Precision Strike-Any roles of a 6 to hit are Precision strikes and can be allocated to the model of you choice.....

Because you are hitting automatically there is no roll to hit. That step in the assault sub-phase has been skipped.

RAW for precision is in the hit section of the shooting and assault sub-phases. Because there is no hit-phase there is no chance for precision strikes.
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby YeezyMozart » Fri Mar 14, 2014 10:48 am

LOL why do I even bother posting rules questions?? :shock:
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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby Chubs » Sat Mar 15, 2014 11:30 am

Because you want the right answer.

Page 63, second paragraph under p. strikes... Snaps, scatter shots, and 'no roll to hit' can't be precision shots/ strikes. So things like the hammer of wraith from a dread knight can't precision strike models either.

You don't throw any 'to hit' dice because (see page13) you are using a codex rule (codex special rule > rule book) to skip that part.

That's the way I see it.

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Re: Psycotropic Nades roll 2 and percision

Postby Lord Krungharr » Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:03 pm

If there's a character in the GK crew just make a challenge and then all the hits will automatically hit the Challengee.

If they deny it, then you can pick the strongest dude to sit out the combat.

That's fair.
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