Opinion Question

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Opinion Question

Postby YeezyMozart » Mon Feb 04, 2013 6:32 pm

After reading the Dark Angels Codex and looking into a all bike army I came up with an idea. It is no secret that I really like Orks and their fluff. I always wanted to do a all Ork biker army but I felt that the rules where never really there to back them up and make them a feasible tournament army.

When reading the Dark Angels book I realized that the Dark Angels Bike army would be exactly the way I would want a Speed Freak Biker army to play like. So here lies the dilemma.... I really want to make this all Ork Biker Army and have it *Count as Dark Angels.... I would do my best to convert everything really well and try to ensure all units and weapons are obvious replacements. I plan to even take a picture all the units and put the pictures in the army lists so absolutely no confusion is there. I would also make sure it was painted and built better than any other army I have done before and put a lot of effort into it. For me I always like the rule of cool so I think it is awesome but I wonder what others may think.

Would an army like this be something you would like to see or would you just be frustrated with it?

Or any ideas to further ensure I do not get under my opponents skin with the Count as Army?
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby jrnach » Mon Feb 04, 2013 7:45 pm

I think that if you make a clear effort to make the army wysiwyg then its more than acceptable, its encouraged to take on such a creative endeavor.
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby tg787 » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:02 pm

I think it would be bad ass, and as long as you had all the right guns and nothing but power armor or better in your army it would be fine. (I.e. all orcs are power armor)
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby Turtle » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:46 am

I really really hate this idea
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby YeezyMozart » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:19 am

Turtle wrote:I really really hate this idea



LOL thanks for being so honest! :roll:

Your post is very insightful and I totally see where you are coming from with all your great points explaining why you "Really Really hate this idea". Much appreciated....
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby Turtle » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:00 pm

I really really hate this because it's not a flavorful or interesting concept. You want to play speed freaks, then play with orks. You want to use the dark angel list then use dark angel models. Convert the hell out of whichever one you want and make it look pretty. However we aren't playing 2nd edition anymore where everybody can have all sorts of wargear from other books.

you built an army list first and then tried to shoehorn theme into it. You're using the dark angle list because it's "better" than the ork one. But you still like orks so it's trying to justify a really good army list with a concept you like. Ultimately it falls flat and there is no way to pull the stench off of it.

It smells entirely of trying to win and then layering a coat of paint on top of it as if you're trying to soften the edge and say Look how cool and pretty my army is.

This sort of concept epitomizes what I loathe about a counts as army.

You aren't using a list for any theme or conceptual reasons. You're using it because you think the army list will do better in the game. That's not what theme is about. This is just like using chaos models in a space wolf army.

Better?
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby seahawk » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:14 pm

I suppose along a similar vein, I hated seeing space marines painted as Blood Angels being used as Space Wolves at the last A-con. I see BA, I expect BA, not SW.

Just as much as I'd see Ork Bikers, I'd expect Ork Bikers, not Ravenwing.

It's not just a case of model swap and the stats are the same (I'd totally allow that); for instance, using Cultist models for a traitor guard army. These are sweeping changes, with the S, A, Ld, and Sv all different, not to mention the variety of special rules differences.
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby YeezyMozart » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:13 pm

That’s actually much better Tony since now I can see what you actually think as opposed to the end result of simple hatred :twisted:

You are correct in your speculation as to why I would do this count as army. It is without a doubt because I think the Dark Angels Codex/Raven Wing army is a legitimate bike tournament army. Whereas the Ork Speed Freaks lists is more of a fluff army and it is not competitive enough for my liking. It sucks when you want to play a particular army because of theme/models but you never get the chance too because the rules don’t line up with competitive play. I think that if the exact same rules where in the Ork book they would fit so well for an Ork Bike army. I truly don’t believe there would be any shoehorning going on because it fits so well but I see where you are coming from.

Of course I am trying to win my games without a doubt but I wouldn't say that I am trying to soften any edges either. I love playing competitively and I take no shame in playing an army designed to win games.

I do appreciate the feedback so I can get some insight to what others may think about the idea and feel about the count as army. This gives me a much better picture for what I may be getting myself into and whether or not it is worth it.
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:55 pm

I don't like this at all and I've played against it. Years ago we had counts as from hell armies. They look good on the dais but are absolutly no fun to play against.

I played against a White Scars army which was all skeleton animals. The skeleton Mammoth was a Land raider. The Skeleton Rhino was a Predator. The skeleton horses pulling chariots were attack bikes. The blue heads were heavy bolters the red heads were multi-meltas, etc... this went on and on. The army looked fun and cool on the dais, but on the tabletop it was a bear. There are constant reminders during deployment and turn 1, but as the game goes on and becomes more close the reminders stop. Then moves are made thinking a unit is one thing and it turns out to be another. No take backs as we are several phases removed from the movement phase. Fights start and all hell breaks loose.

I agree with turtle that this would be seen as a WAAC decision and unfavorably by most traditionalists who won't say it to your face, only during lunch at Portillos.. Most people who are in it only for the top general spot wouldn't have a problem, at first, but then during tight games when they forget what a unit should really be they scream the loudest.

This idea got me thinking. I don'tlike my bugs as much as I like Chaos now, but I don't have all the chaos models I need so I'll use bugs.

Hive Guard are Obliterators
Tervigons are maulerfiends
Hormagants will be CSM with CCW
Termagants will be regular CSM and I'll have the red gun be a lascannon
Raveners are Spawn
Flying Tyrants are Heldrakes
Tyranid Warriors are Terminators

I like it.

Next game I want my foot Eldar to be Grey Knights

Guardians are Strike Squads with Warlocks as Justicars
Dire Avengers are Purifiers
Wraithlords are Dreadknights
Wraithguard are GK Termies/paladins
Farseer is Coteaz
Warwalkers are Dreadnoughts
Banshees are Assassins

I'll ally them with with Space Wolves who will be my tau

Fire warriors are Grey Hunters
Crisis Suits are Terminators
Kroot Ox are Thunderwolves

etc.....
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby YeezyMozart » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:27 pm

Fred,

That is a very well written reply and a very compelling argument. I think you took the examples to the extreme but that is what drives a point into the ground the best.

For this Ork Bker count as Dark Angels army I would literally only have 2 different unit types. Assault bike Squads and Black knight Squads. I think I could do enough to ensure no one ever mixes them up in a game, but I see how your examples could be confusing.

Furthermore I see what Tony means about the theme being forced and falling flat since in all of your examples Fred I thought: Why the hell would you do that? Your examples of count as armies make no sense and are merely examples of how count as armies can be abused for ill reasons. I don't feel like my idea fits in the same category as your examples.
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:33 pm

Hive guard as Obliterators. The Hive guard release a different kind of bio ammo depending on what the Hive Mind senses is the most optimal weapon for the situation.

Tervigons as Maulerfiends. The Tervigon looks like a 6 legged monster which can get around the battlefield quickly. It assaults with those big spikes legs and when it makes a hit the little bugs come out of the belly to burn through armor and buildings ala magna cutters. Tyrannofex as a Forgefiend is even easier.

Flyrants as Heldrakes. Winged monsters with an armor value flying around and spraying acid (str 6 ap 3 acid) over the enemy. Sometimes the Flyrants will vector strike units on the ground and strike at them with their boneswords at str 7.

Raveners as Spawn. They are already the same unit and even in the same FA slot.

This fluff stuff really isn't hard.

Guardians unleash a hail of shrunken fire at assault 2 already. To make them Strike Squad it's only an increase of 12" to range of the gun. In close combat the Guardians from this particular craft world are heavily embedded with psychic powers. In close combat they strike at the mind of the enemy instead of physical combat, but the enemy needs to be close for this to work. Their attacks can penetrate armor and often cause instant death to the brain (hence no armor saves) of the enemy in close combat with them. The units Warlock can generate a stronger psychic presence for the entire unit (hammer hand)

Dire avengers from this craft world, with similar guns and psychic combat abilities as the Guardians, can also unleash a searing wave of pyrotastic energy on the enemy in close combat (purifiers)

Wraithlords as Dreadknights = no brainer.
Banshees as death cult assassins = no brainer

Farseer as Coteaz. Not a stretch as they are both psyches and his I've been expecting you power and spy network power can be explained as extensions of the Farseers enhanced psychic abilities from his craft world.


I'm really liking the Eldar fluff and its starting to make a hell of a lot more sense that an Eldar craftworld has enhanced psychic units whose powers mimic the Grey Knight codex than a Waaagh of Orks who all of a sudden have superior 3+ armor saves, superior plasma and melta weaponry and can shoot with the best genetically enhanced super soldiers in the galaxy as BS 4. On top of all that the DNA of an Ork is to drive forward, fight and die, but these bikes practice a more delicate art form of war which calls for hit and run tactics, misdirection and subtle tactics mostly predicated on their uber-enhanced initiative which has been boosted to 4.

Not buying it.
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:41 pm

YeezyMozart wrote:Fred,

I think I could do enough to ensure no one ever mixes them up in a game



Alan meet Tom Curzi. Tom meet Alan.

Boom :!: goes the dynamite.
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby YeezyMozart » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:20 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:
a Waaagh of Orks who all of a sudden have superior 3+ armor saves, superior plasma and melta weaponry and can shoot with the best genetically enhanced super soldiers in the galaxy as BS 4. On top of all that the DNA of an Ork is to drive forward, fight and die, but these bikes practice a more delicate art form of war which calls for hit and run tactics, misdirection and subtle tactics mostly predicated on their uber-enhanced initiative which has been boosted to 4.

Not buying it.


But these are the thematic inconsistencies that are exactly what make the army worth playing. LOL :D

I think Tom would be fine don't drag him into this. :lol:
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby Redbeard » Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:19 am

I'd just like to say that I ran Ork bikers in the Adepticon championships in 2011 and finished 21/244. I'm sure you could do even better than that Alan. Don't write them off as uncompetitive just yet.
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Re: Opinion Question

Postby DaGrippster » Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:51 pm

Haters gonna hate. I say do it, it wouldn't bother me. But then again you could bring a brick and call it a Land Raider and I wouldn't be fazed.

In all seriousness, I do think that most people won't mind, or won't tell you that they mind, but it would be frowned upon at the least. The thing to decide is whether you want to deal with that every time you bring them to a tournament.

You know that sooner or later somebody is going to throw a fit and nobody wants to deal with that.
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