Warhammer Historical Closes

[Nostromo]

I am not sure about CoE either, but got slapped for criticizing GEG in the past. You could use WAB lists in that system.

Rick Priestly designed HC torun with an umpire....that would make for a staff heavy tournament!

[aergren]

I think I am going to be picking up COE before the deal end. From everything I have read I will enjoy the system as it is close to WAB and they have a large selection of lists and seem to be putting out supplements at a rapid pace.

Abe

[Matt-J2]

Hail Caesar actually has a lot of lists, and in June when the next book comes out will certainly be a contender, if not actually have the most lists available. None are available for download though, IIRC.

[RichN]

Hail Caesar has plenty of lists, not to mention - it's super easy to create your own armies from the examples given in the book.

On the subject of which rule sets Adepticon may be switching to:
Matt is still pondering the team event on Sunday. He may stick with WAB or change to CoE.
If I run the Saturday Ancients event, it will be for Hail Caesar.
The various big games will be on a rule set of the organizer's choosing.
A Saga tournament sounds interesting - we just need a volunteer to step up and run it.

[Nostromo]

When i posted to run Saga as a tourrnament, it was meant as a volunteer to do it post!

Unless you wont have me?!

I have terrain commitment already...and we can work out the timing...

I would love to try HC in a big game...is there a Late Roman list??

War and Conquest sounds the most interesting in mechanics to me....but might just write my own

[Lordgoober]

The book that drops in June will have Middle and Late Imperial Roman lists.

[aergren]

I was wondering if anyone who has played Hail Caesar could maybe run me through how it plays as it compares to WAB, just as a frame of reference.

[Lordgoober]

Hail Caesar plays much more like Warmaster as it was written by the same author and is very much warmaster 3.0 in a lot of ways.

[RichN]

Hail Caesar is a unit based game with a leadership command system. Armies are organized into divisions, with a number of units (4) within each division. Each division has a command figure which issues movement orders. Pass the check and the unit can move in any fashion up to to the max movement allowed by the command check. Fail the check and the unit does not move (and the division is also finished moving). Once a unit is with in 12 inches, it can skip the leadership roll for an 'initiative' move.

Combat is similar to WAB - each unit rolls its attack value for hits, then the defender rolls for moral saves. Unit can get extra dice from supporting units to the side/rear, or from attached characters. Loser of the battle checks the break chart, with results ranging from broken, to disordered to pushed back. Disordered is a temporary state where the unit is at a penalty and it can not be given orders. Shaken is when a unit has taken a number of hits & now has a penalty, can't be ordered into combat and has a huge penalty on the break chart. Shooting attacks frequently force a check on the break chart over causing any actual damage.

When units close within 12 inches, they become subject to Proximity. I will not try to explain it here, as it is the most complex portion of the HC rules. In summary, when close to the enemy, units must square up and get ready to fight (or retreat).... no dancing around the edges. In any sort of event, I expect proximity to require the most official's calls - not that its hard to apply, but the rule works best when trying to follow the spirit rather than the letter.

Units are classified as either infantry or cavalry, divided into heavy, medium, light and skirmish. Special rules are available to beef up units - Knights would have the lance rule, Hoplites the Phalanx and long spear rule.

When compared to WAB, the rules delivers the same sort of gaming experience without the fiddly bits of trying to measure a wheel or sort out which figures in a unit can fight. The movement phase can be rather random with some unit zooming half way around the table while others refuse to move turn after turn, and well executed Sweeping Advance can be a game winning move. WAB has it's own randomness with panic, all or nothing break checks and rally checks.

[Nostromo]

A few questions if you will-

How are hits taken- markers or removal of figures- i.e. can I move to doing larger bases with more dynamic possibilities easily?
I started to in WAB, using 1, 2's and 3s, but didn't always work great.

Are spears and their big brother pikes the best thing in HC?

Is there Medieval support at this time?

[RichN]

Hits are marked with dice or other counters. The whole unit stays on the table until broken. Multi-based figures work just fine. The only time a unit changes shape is for march columns or if the unit is forced into skirmish formation due to terrain. Even then, there are ways to get around that on the table. My figures are on magnetized trays & only come off if I want to play WAB. This style of basing does open the door for full based units with built on terrain or other hobby features. It also means that you don't have to have XX number of figures, so long as the total base size is correct.

I've mostly played Medievals where the two handed ax is the nastiest weapon.

Long Spears and Pikes take away charge bonus & give cavalry problems. Mostly only ancients units have these weapons.

Both the Ancient and Dark Age book is available from Warlord. But we played our Medieval campaign with home brewed lists. It was pretty easy to translate WAB army books into HC lists.

[Thogrid]

A few questions if you will-

How are hits taken- markers or removal of figures- i.e. can I move to doing larger bases with more dynamic possibilities easily?
I started to in WAB, using 1, 2's and 3s, but didn't always work great.

Are spears and their big brother pikes the best thing in HC?

Is there Medieval support at this time?

I have yet to play a game of HC..have the rules and have read through once, but it has been a while. However, I've played quite a bit of Black Powder and know the same applies to Aaron's question in HC. So, if Rich doesn't mind me stickin' my nose in here:

1. Hits are taken on the unit and are marked with chits or some other sort of marker. Figures are not removed until the entire unit is removed. BP recommends frontage for individual foot figures be 20mm and infantry be mounted four figures on a 40x40mm stand. You can go to town on basing your figs!!

2. I'll have to let Rich comment on this one...but my initial thought is it isn't quite that easy to say in all situations spear/pike are "best".

3. The upcoming supplement (due out mid June from Warlord) will cover Middle Imperial Rome to Early Medieval...lists below:

From the Warlord website (http://store.warlordgames.com/hail-caes ... 9048-p.asp)

This supplement for the Hail Caesar game contains 60 army lists covering the forces of Late Antiquity, the Dark Ages and Early Medieval periods, from the ‘crisis’ of the turbulent mid-third century to the Mongol invasions of the thirteenth. Each list provides a guide to army composition, suggested game values for troops, and points values for the different units. The following armies are included:

•Palmyran
•Middle Imperial Roman
•Sassanid Persian
•Goths
•Early Saxon
•Franks
•Huns
•Late Imperial Roman
•African Vandals
•White Huns
•Gepids
•Spanish Visigoths
•Ostrogothic Italy
•Early Byzantine
•Lombards
•Scots-Irish
•Arthurian-British
•Welsh
•Merovingian Franks
•Avars
•Picts
•Khazars
•Arab Conquest
•Bulgars
•Tang China
•Thematic Byzantine
•Arab Empire
•Carolingean Franks
•Pecheneg
•Anglo Saxon
•Rus
•Vikings
•Almoravid Moors
•Fatamid Egypt
•Tagmatic Byzantine
•Al-Andalus
•Christian Spain
•Ghaznavid
•Liao China and Kara-Khitan Khaganate
•Norman
•Seljuk Turks
•Feudal French
•Feudal Germans
•Feudal Polish
•Early Hungarian
•Ayyubid Egyptians
•Sung China
•Italo-Norman
•Feudal Scots
•Early Russian
•Khwarazmian Persian
•Comnenian Byzantine
•Burid and Zengid Syria
•Japanese
•Plantagenet English
•Lombard League
•Crusaders
•Later Welsh
•Teutonic Crusaders
•Mongol

In addition to Rich's comments about proximity moves, I think the other biggest problem players new to BP/HC have is in the command phase. You specifically state the orders for the unit/units you are rolling for ("move to the ridge line and engage the enemy in hand to hand combat") and if your command roll is sufficient, you move the unit/units to fulfill the order. If it is not (you only roll well enough to have two moves/actions and your orders require three) the unit/units must move to try and fulfill their orders. Most of the time, I've seen guys be conservative ("move 12 inches to the road") and only need to roll enough for one move/action, then roll really well and want the unit to do more than their orders called for. Sin Loi at that point...you can only move as far as your orders stated. That *could* be an issue in a tournament setting at first, but I think our group would sort it out.

While I might have some concerns about HC in a tournament situation at other venues, I think the group of players we've had show at previous AC events are of the right mind set to make it work. I've seen nothing but pure, good sportsmen more concerned with playing the game correctly as opposed to taking some advantage...so I think an HC tournament would work with the current lot of us.

I plan on still playing WAB, but if we decide to switch to something else, I most definitely would recommend HC for big games and would be definitely interested in giving it a go for the tournaments.

My $1.380...

[RichN]

The orders system should be easy for players to pick up. People will quickly realize that there is no OR or IF to the orders phase. And a few extra blunders for skipping the verbal order will sort people out quickly (sort of like the penalty forgetting to move your turn counter in Blood Bowl).

[Thogrid]

The orders system should be easy for players to pick up. People will quickly realize that there is no OR or IF to the orders phase. And a few extra blunders for skipping the verbal order will sort people out quickly (sort of like the penalty forgetting to move your turn counter in Blood Bowl).

Aye, Laddie...that'd be the truth of it!

In our big games of BP (ACW in 15mm and the Campaign for Missouri), we've only had one time where we had to institue the blunder rule. Everybody gets a Mulligan, but one of our guys just couldn't seem to get it...and half the time his blunder rolls actually were better for him! LOL!

We should be able to do this if we chose this route. I think the game is a total blast.

[PsychosisPC]

I currently have no desire to play HC, I don't care for its mechanics, count me out of the Singles Tourney for sure.

I am still in the WAB camp so CoE may be the better transition for me. If SAGA is done, I plan to learn how to play that game sometime this summer.