The New Arnor List and Theme

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The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby JLeong » Mon Feb 06, 2012 3:09 am

The new Arnor list has combined the Grey Company and the (historical) Arnor list. Arnor was designed, at least as I understood it, to be the kingdom destroyed by the Witch King. Arvedui was the last king, and in the Third Age, at the time of the War of the Ring, its government (and army ) was gone.
The old system seemed to present the Grey Company list as what was left of Arnor. The Dunedain were the only game in town.
The new descriptions for Warriors of Arnor, however, seem to say that there are warriors of Arnor running around at the time of the War of the Ring. Aragorn, Isildur's Heir, also includes the term "Warriors of Arnor" in his special rules. The rule mentions "heroes and warriors of Arnor," meaning that yes, this covers all rangers both heroic and vanilla. My question comes in here: why not specify rangers, rangers of the north, and dunedain like before? Why say heroes and warriors, when the list now contains troops that used to be from a different time?

Is the implication here that yes, the defenders of the North have warriors and captains in heavy armor, and that they can be commanded by Aragorn, Isildur's heir?
Games Workshop seems to have the ability to toy with the who/what/where/when of Arnor's forces. It isn't unreasonable to think that the forces that followed Aragorn to burn the Corsair fleets armored themselves, but the kindom of Arnor was supposed to be long gone.

Would taking these armored troops be inconsistent with a good theme? Or are the warriors of Arnor supposed to be Aragorn's (and Halbarad's or Arathorn's) contemporaries?
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby VeteranNoob » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:11 pm

It's clear that, with the new sourcebooks, GW doesn't care about themes as much, if at all. My main problem (and I don't really have that many altogether) with the new stuff is the removal of ally restrictions. Under the new rules, you could take Durin and Gimli together, Gil-Galad and Legolas, Aragorn and Arvedui, etc. As in the new books, it basically says good can ally with good, and evil with evil. That's the only restriction. Many people now, including TO's, have expressed the desire to make "theming" your lists for tournaments have a greater weight as a result.

So could you take Aragorn with a bunch of Warriors of Arnor? Sure.... and may God have mercy on your soul, lol!
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby Smeagol » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:49 pm

VeteranNoob wrote:So could you take Aragorn with a bunch of Warriors of Arnor? Sure.... and may God have mercy on your soul, lol!

More correctly don't lose to a well themed force or your chances of winning said tournament is in the toilet. :-)

I'm okay with mixing and matching heroes to some extent. More than once I've used Halbarad to represent a Rohirrim nobleman or a young and unproven Aragorn or a king of men. Who's to say a man of Halbarad's stature and skill wasn't fighting alongside Arvedui? Theme is very subjective and TOs will potentially be on a slippery slope with that call. Which doesn't mean I'm against the idea of a modest theme score being added to a tournament score.
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby JLeong » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:09 pm

So I'm hearing several things:

First-- you guys dislike the loss of the Legions Ally system as much as I do, and you see also the potential abuses.

Second-- we all think it is generally a good idea for a theme score to be a significant factor in tournaments.

Third-- The use of Aragorn, Isildur's Heir and Warriors of Arnor is not an acceptable theme.

My argument for the combo would be that the Warriors of Arnor could represent the more heavily armed men who traveled with Aragorn through the paths of the dead and into Gondor. They were not necessarily all armed with the same equipment. The men defending the borders of Forgotten Arnor may still employ heavy arms and armor when assembled as an army. They are the same bloodlin and would use the same icons, still employ the same tactics, etc. Aragorn is redeeming the Kingdom afterall!

That said-- would you buy the argument ? I have a lovely Paths of the Dead Display in mind :lol:
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby jlong05 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:33 pm

Personally I like the idea. I still disagree with the sentiment that no warriors of armor can exist in the 3rd age. Not everyone uses a bow and arrow. I say build it cause you want to!
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby BostonNazgul » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:19 am

page 6 addresses timeline issues in each of the new books.

Just cause you can doesnt mean people will. You do not need GW to stand over every game, just dont be a brat and think about your force selection.

Just cause legions laid out ally rules in respect to timelines does not mean it did not allow badly themed force selection.
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby VeteranNoob » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:49 am

I agree to a point, that just cause you can doesn't mean you will. However, there are a number of major cheez-sters out there. I know one guy immediately started spouting off ways to make an "unstoppable force" through varying allies. Most people choose some form of theming, but there are those whose theme is "power". And I just worry that the floodgates can be opened without incentive to do otherwise. Hence my support of "theme points" for tournies.

Besides, Phoenix already has an event that throws theme out the window. It's called March to Mount Doom. HAHA!
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby VeteranNoob » Wed Feb 08, 2012 1:50 am

And I also agree that GW doesn't need to hold our hands. I'd be scared to have that be a constant anyways, because GW can take you to some scary, broken places with games.
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby BostonNazgul » Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:01 pm

theme judging will take an increased role in future events for sure, I would say something similar to Gitd currently, enough to make an impact if it were abused.
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby ChrisLS » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:40 pm

One thing that occurred to me was using Swan Knights as mounted Numenoreans. Since the new rules allows ANY allies, I thought that taking a Captain of Dol Amroth with a few mounted Knights would make a fantastic escort for a mounted Elendil or Isildur. And since Imrahil is descended from Numenorean stock, it completely makes sense that there would be Swan Knights in the Second Age!
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby JLeong » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:04 pm

The only problem I see with taking Swan Knights with Numenor is the technology difference. I think the idea behind the plate armor used by the third age warriors is to suggest the passing of time and improved technology. Plate in the second age (for men at least) looks like it was something used by the royals.
That said, I am not sure it makes too much of a difference, but the thought is still there. Mounted Numenoreans would be a very cool conversion though!
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby Smeagol » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:12 pm

Using Erkenbrand and upgrading Riders of Rohan would give you the right level of armour and FV. The conversions become simple head and shield swaps. I like this idea. The only issue would be with GW events where Erkenbrand has to represented by his model. Though a converted Erkenbrand might still pass muster.
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby ChrisLS » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:21 pm

Does GW not do Counts-As any more? That would suck.
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby Smeagol » Tue Feb 21, 2012 2:47 pm

Not according to the UK GT instructions, which I expect to be enforced by GW US as well.
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Re: The New Arnor List and Theme

Postby Lordgoober » Tue Feb 21, 2012 3:05 pm

There was a whole large griping thread about that on TLA on the run up to the UKGT. Under those rules, the models I used in Bilbo's would not have been legal since I wasn't using the official metal Osgiliath Veterans.
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