New Sourcebook FAQ requests

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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby Smeagol » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:28 am

jlong05 wrote:Siege Weapons: Is the correct understanding on Siege weapons that you take a hero, add the Siege weapon to the Hero's warband and then the models added as part of siege weapon are used to fill the up to 12 warriors? I believe this is correct, but that if you take a siege weapon and upgrade it's options with a Engineer Captain, it then would become a warband unto itself with the engineer captain as the leader(allowing for 12 other models??)
If a seige engine is purchased with a captain then automatically leads a war and that includes the war machine and its crew. So a catapult with three crew with one upgraded to a captain would start as a war and of four models (seige engine, captain and two crew) to which you could add in another eight models. A dwarf catapult would be three models: the catapult, the captain and the crewman; etc...

jlong05 wrote: Mumak crew. Is the crew for the mumak included in the price of the mumak or or do you pay the price for the crew seerate by choice of model type?
There is no crew for a mumak. The base price buys you a cheiftain and a mumak. You then buy up to twelve additional models to fill out the war and. Technically this makes the warband fourteen models, but GW gets around the wording by referring to the mumak as the chieftain's mount.

jlong05 wrote: Easterling War Drum. What the heck is this? I cannot find rules for this in the sourcebook, so is this the Easterling version of a Horn, or is this some sort of Easterling version of the Orc drums that increase movement? Please let me know where this item is shown what it does. Thanks.
The war drum is an Easterling Kataphract only upgrade and the (new) rules are under the Kataphract's special rules. The war drum didn't exist in LOME or the Shadow in the East books.
Last edited by Smeagol on Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby jlong05 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:51 am

Smeagol wrote: If a seige engine is purchased with a captain then automatically leads a war and that includes the war machine and its crew. So a catapult with three crew with one upgraded to a captain would start as a war and of four models (seige engine, captain and two crew) to which you could add in another eight models. A dwarf catapult would be three models: the catapult, the captain and the crewman; etc...


Ok, so the maximum warband size for the siegeweapons that include a Engineering captain would be 12 (Siege weapon + captain + 10 crew). This is different that a normal warband that allows the hero + 12(making the warbands 13 models in size) Is that correct then?

Smeagol wrote:There is no crew for a mumak. The base price buys you a cheiftain and a mumak. You then buy up to twelve additional models to fill out the war and. Technically this makes the war and thirteen models, but GW gets around the wording by referring to the mumak as the chieftain's mount.


Perfect. That was what I initally thought, but having never played a mumak before I wasn't certain. Thank you for clarifying that.

Smeagol wrote:The war drum is an Easterling Kataphract only upgrade and the (new) rules are under the Kataphract's special rules. The war drum didn't exist in LOME or the Shadow in the East books.


Ok, I feel stupid. I was reading that run as it was an always available option and not the wargear special rule. That is a very silly way for them to have done that item. THey could have simply made it a wargear option and only gave the wargear to that unit. Oh well. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

I guess this means then that the Isengard and Easterling forces no longer have access to war horns for courage. Also Harad has only a single unit with that upgrade. That is a significant change given that previously the war horn was basically available to nearly all warrior models.
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby jlong05 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:56 am

Smeagol wrote:The shields are a new option to the army of the dead. The odds are that these options were forgotten with the riders of the dead. Another question is what is the defense of the rider's mount? By the rules they ride horses and thus are defense four instead of defense six or seven like the riders themselves. After all the horse is dead too.


The option wasn't forgotten as it is included in teh default wargear profile. It isn't optional. Maybe you meant the option was forgotten when applying the wargear stats and that the default shoudl have been a D8?

As for the horse, I believe it is clear. I actually touched on this on page 1 of this thread as well. Riders have a horse(dead or not, it's still just a horse). As such the horse has a standard horse profile, (this is how RotD move 10") and since there is no longer a rule stating the rider and horse are a single model, Riders of the Dead can now be dismounted, so make sure you bring dismount models. ;)
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby Smeagol » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:27 am

jlong05 wrote:
Smeagol wrote: If a seige engine is purchased with a captain then automatically leads a war and that includes the war machine and its crew. So a catapult with three crew with one upgraded to a captain would start as a war and of four models (seige engine, captain and two crew) to which you could add in another eight models. A dwarf catapult would be three models: the catapult, the captain and the crewman; etc...


Ok, so the maximum warband size for the siegeweapons that include a Engineering captain would be 12 (Siege weapon + captain + 10 crew). This is different that a normal warband that allows the hero + 12(making the warbands 13 models in size) Is that correct then?


Nope. Warband size doesn't change. You still get 13 models. It's just that one of those models is the seige engine. So Seige Captain, Seige Engine and 11 crew could be one warband. Note that the warband doesn't have to be just the crew. You could have the engine, captain and crew plus some normal warriors as the warband. Basically the seige engine takes the spot of one of the warriors.
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby Smeagol » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:29 am

jlong05 wrote:The option wasn't forgotten as it is included in teh default wargear profile. It isn't optional. Maybe you meant the option was forgotten when applying the wargear stats and that the default shoudl have been a D8?
Essentially yes.

jlong05 wrote:As for the horse, I believe it is clear. I actually touched on this on page 1 of this thread as well. Riders have a horse(dead or not, it's still just a horse). As such the horse has a standard horse profile, (this is how RotD move 10") and since there is no longer a rule stating the rider and horse are a single model, Riders of the Dead can now be dismounted, so make sure you bring dismount models. ;)

And his defense goes up by one as he's now essentially a warrior of the dead with a shield. :P
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby Smeagol » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:32 am

jlong05 wrote:
Smeagol wrote:There is no crew for a mumak. The base price buys you a cheiftain and a mumak. You then buy up to twelve additional models to fill out the war and. Technically this makes the warband fourteen models, but GW gets around the wording by referring to the mumak as the chieftain's mount.


Perfect. That was what I initally thought, but having never played a mumak before I wasn't certain. Thank you for clarifying that.


I've corrected the typos, but fourteen is the maximum size for a Mumak warband. Chieftain + Mumak mount and twelve warriors.
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby jlong05 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:02 pm

Another warmachine question. Issengard Assault Ballista says it includes 3 uruk-hai warrior crew with heavy armour. Are these models allowed to then be modified as normal Uruk-hai warriors? Can they for instance take shields and/or a banner? Are additional warriors also able to take options?I noticed that these warriors are more costly than a normal warrior as well. 10 points as crew but 9 points in a normal warband. I guess that last point is the warmachine training??

Are the rules indicated for above also the case for other warmachines, and what about the Uruk-hai Demolition team. It actually says 2 warriors from page 21 and a zerker from page 21(giving a strong indication these can be upgraded) and the ones in a normal warmachine may not.

What says the group?
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby Smeagol » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:08 pm

Warmachine crews cannot be modified. They come as stated. This was a problem for the LOME Black Numenorean catapult because the crewmen were only 8 points, but armed and armoured the same as their 9 point warrior non-crew bretheren.

There is a possibility that the uruk-hai crewmen are overpriced, but they cannot be upgraded unless stated otherwise. Since that warmachine sucks big time I've never bothered using it more than once.
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby jlong05 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:34 pm

And another question. Models taht have default wargear(such as a shield) which then get upgraded to a banner-losing all existing weapons and wargear) does their defence drop by one from the base value provided on the statline?

Example is a Mahud Warrior which includes a shield and have a base def of 5. If the warrior is upgraded to a banner, the rules say he loses the shield, so does his def then drop to a 4 even though he is not being 'upgraded' originally with a shield?
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby jlong05 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:37 pm

Smeagol wrote:Warmachine crews cannot be modified. They come as stated. This was a problem for the LOME Black Numenorean catapult because the crewmen were only 8 points, but armed and armoured the same as their 9 point warrior non-crew bretheren.

There is a possibility that the uruk-hai crewmen are overpriced, but they cannot be upgraded unless stated otherwise. Since that warmachine sucks big time I've never bothered using it more than once.

OK that makes sense. In fact, I guess unless you 'want' the trained crew, you are actually better off using a regular hero, add the warmachine, and then add basic troops to the warband to fill so you have full access to wargear options. Just my thought on it I guess.

What about the Demolition crew? It appears these are 'normal' warriors that can be upgraded(including the additional torch option. Since the Demo team isnt a siege weapon I guess that makes sense.
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby Smeagol » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:41 pm

Warmachine captains can lead regular troops too. The rulebook game rules haven't changed. The only new addition to the rules is deployment. I've seperated warriors from their warband leader in all of my games so far.
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby jlong05 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:42 pm

Smeagol wrote:Warmachine captains can lead regular troops too. The rulebook game rules haven't changed. The only new addition to the rules is deployment. I've seperated warriors from their warband leader in all of my games so far.

Well, wait a minute. Nothing in the new rules says you can take a warmachine, upgrade a warrior to a engineer captain and then take additional warriors. The unit is still a Warrior unit and therefor not eligible to command additional troop selections. The seige rules simple state that if a warmachine is taken, and that warmachine uses the engineer captain upgrade that the captain MUST lead the warband. It does not go on to state that the engineer captain can then take new warrior units, only that the seige engine can include the additional warrior models in its normal option list.

I see this as the following options then:

Warband 1.
Normal Hero
Takes Siege Engine(netting 3 seige engine crew - warriors) --- 4 total models
May add additional warrior units up to a total of 12 warriors (ie, 8 more models) or can take additional seige crew at siege crew cost up to 12 total models (ie a total of 8 more models).
Warband roster is:
Leader: Standard hero(From list of available army heros)
1. Siege Weapon
2. Siege Crew
3. Siege Crew
4. Siege Crew
5 - 12. Additional Siege Crew (purchased as wargear options) or Warrior model (added to warband from hero leader).

Warband 2.
Take Siege Engine with UPGRADED Engineer captain
Gets 2 Siege Engine crew --- 3 total models
May add additional seige crew at siege crew cost up to 12 total models (ie a total of 9 more models).
Warband roster is:
Leader: Siege Engine Captain (Upgraded Siege Engine Crewman)
1. Siege Weapon
2. Siege Crew
3. Siege Crew
4 - 12. Additional Siege Crew (purchased as wargear options).

Noting states that the Siege Engine Captain is a 'Standard Captain' Hero that can then take additional standard warrior units as part of his warband. This is further supported by page 68 of the main rules that says;
Engineer Captains carry a hand weapon, but otherwise have the same equipment as the crew and may not be bought additional equipment.


It's not a matter of play after deployment, it is a matter of what is purchasable within the warband rules. You cannot created a siege weapons self lead and add additional warrior models, only additional crew models.
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby Smeagol » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:27 pm

You're right I'm an idiot. I'll just shut up now.
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby CaWizkid » Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:00 am

jlong05 wrote:
Smeagol wrote:Warmachine captains can lead regular troops too. The rulebook game rules haven't changed. The only new addition to the rules is deployment. I've seperated warriors from their warband leader in all of my games so far.

Well, wait a minute. Nothing in the new rules says you can take a warmachine, upgrade a warrior to a engineer captain and then take additional warriors. The unit is still a Warrior unit and therefor not eligible to command additional troop selections. The seige rules simple state that if a warmachine is taken, and that warmachine uses the engineer captain upgrade that the captain MUST lead the warband. It does not go on to state that the engineer captain can then take new warrior units, only that the seige engine can include the additional warrior models in its normal option list.

I see this as the following options then:

Warband 1.
Normal Hero
Takes Siege Engine(netting 3 seige engine crew - warriors) --- 4 total models
May add additional warrior units up to a total of 12 warriors (ie, 8 more models) or can take additional seige crew at siege crew cost up to 12 total models (ie a total of 8 more models).
Warband roster is:
Leader: Standard hero(From list of available army heros)
1. Siege Weapon
2. Siege Crew
3. Siege Crew
4. Siege Crew
5 - 12. Additional Siege Crew (purchased as wargear options) or Warrior model (added to warband from hero leader).

Warband 2.
Take Siege Engine with UPGRADED Engineer captain
Gets 2 Siege Engine crew --- 3 total models
May add additional seige crew at siege crew cost up to 12 total models (ie a total of 9 more models).
Warband roster is:
Leader: Siege Engine Captain (Upgraded Siege Engine Crewman)
1. Siege Weapon
2. Siege Crew
3. Siege Crew
4 - 12. Additional Siege Crew (purchased as wargear options).

Noting states that the Siege Engine Captain is a 'Standard Captain' Hero that can then take additional standard warrior units as part of his warband. This is further supported by page 68 of the main rules that says;
Engineer Captains carry a hand weapon, but otherwise have the same equipment as the crew and may not be bought additional equipment.


It's not a matter of play after deployment, it is a matter of what is purchasable within the warband rules. You cannot created a siege weapons self lead and add additional warrior models, only additional crew models.



I am having an issue with this one, I would argue the other way, The rules for Siege engine "Each warband can only contain a single siege engine. The siege engine itself, any crew, each count as one of the warband's 12 models. Note that if a siege engine includes a hero, he must me its captain." It does not say that all members of the warband must be a crew member, I would say normal warbad rules apply, you just can not have more heroes, and you can not add upgrades to the caption because there is none listed under the options for the engine. I have looked the all siege engines. and they no longer say upgrade a model to captain, a XXX engioneer captain is now and option to add to the engine, just as each extra crew, or other upgrade. so the warband is legal as

XXX Engioneer Captain (no upgrades)
1 Siege engine
2 crew
3 crew
4 -12 is another crew member, ( some engines have 3 crew) extra purchased, or other warriors.

Because the Engine and its crew become part of a warband, not and exclusive warband.

On a side note, looks like they took away Easterling Siege Bow.
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Re: New Sourcebook FAQ requests

Postby jlong05 » Tue Feb 14, 2012 6:21 am

I think the rule as listed is poorly written and really probably needs either FAQd or we need some example lissts from GW that show how the 'designers' intend the usage to be. I know GW lists are not always the best designed, but they do lend a significant aid in understanding how models are used together.

For now though, Only heros under the Hero section are able to lead warbands of warrior models, and as your pointed out, the Siege weapon 'heros' are no longer Captains, but are now Engineer Captains. Engineer Captains are not heros in teh army list. This is why the interpretation is that you take either a hro form the army list was a Siege weapon, or you take a Siege weapon alone and now can only use what is available to the Siege weapon for upgrades/crew.

I guess a more 'strict' rule, and more RAW(which I don't believe is the correct interpretation mind you), is that the rules state you MUST create a warband from a hero purchased as part of teh Hero list. So for example we will use Ugluk.

Warband1
Ugluk
Add Isengard Siege Bow to warband(3 crew are auto included)
Upgrade 1 crew to Engineer Captain(2 crew remain) - Rule for Engineer takes over and must lead warband
-----------------------
Warband1
Ugluk(now in a warband by himself cause the Siege bow was removed.)

Warband1a (really a second warband)
Uruk-hai Engineer Captain
Isengard Siege Bow(2 crew)
-----------------------

As you can see that is a way messier method, but is actually in the proper flow, if you were to flow chart list creating. Anyway, I would like to hear other seasoned players on their thoughts. It to me is clear that if you want a Siege weapon with its own Engineer Captain that you are then stuck with a warband of crew only. It is really a trade off is options. If you take a normal hero, he cannot help the Siege weapon with might, but has the option for other warriors to be included in the warband providing potentially better gear than just the crew. If you instead want teh Engineer Captain, well he can use might to help the Siege weapon, but isn't as seasoned of a leader and only Siege crew will actually follow him.
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