Jumping and Climbing - defining the term "wider"

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Jumping and Climbing - defining the term "wider"

Postby Smeagol » Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:31 am

I'm sure that Frank would appreciate me not reading the rulebook anymore. I came across an issue while checking the rules on jumping obstacles and this has lead to many a spirited debate since. To be honest I don't always remember the rule myself as I rarely use Jumping to Climbing in my games.

Definitions:
* Taller means the distance from the bottom of a piece to the top of the piece.
* Wider means the distance from the left of a piece to the right of the same piece.
* Depth means the distance from the front of a piece to the back of a piece.

Reference Page 19 - Jumping an Obstacle - second paragraph: wrote:"A dice is rolled to see if the attempt is successful. If the obstacle is taller or wider than the model's height, deduct from the roll..."


Note the word wider (bolding mine).

Reference page 20 - Jumping a Gap - first paragraph and first sentence of second paragraph: wrote:"A gap, such as a chasm, ditch, or the distance from one part of a ruined building to another, can be jumped in the same way as an obstacle. A model can jump a gap of up to double its own height. Roll on the Jump chart as you would for Jumping an obstacle..."


Note the reference to the rules for jumping an obstacle.

reference page 20 - Climbing - first paragraph: wrote:"...If the total ascent is not more than twice the height of the model, this is accomplished in the same way as for crossing an obstacle and a Jump roll is made as described previously."


Note the reference to the rules for jumping an obstacle.

As almost every obstacle I have ever seen played is wider than the height of the models all jump and climb tests are supposed to be at -1. This even affects the nimble moria goblins

Reference Page 98 - Cave Dwellers - second paragraph: wrote:"...when a Moria goblin is attempting to jump a gap or obstacle up to double its own height. The jump is made automatically just as if a 6 had been rolled on the Jump chart."


Their six is modified to a 5 due to the minus one modifier for wider obstacle, however, the second paragraph of the climbing rule on page 20 continues on how to climb taller terrain pieces and there is no mention of either the jumping rule nor any negative modifier. In fact the relative size of the terrain piece being climbed has no affect on the model other than how long it will take to navigate up or down the piece.

My Arguement:
I find it very implassible that a chasm that is five miles long, but 3 feet across is harder to jump just because it is wider than I am. I have jumped five foot fences with minimal loss of momentum when I was younger and the fact that it was 50 feet wide had no bearing on my ability to clear that barrier. My military training has also showed me that a wall that needs to be climbed is no easier if it is five feet wide or fifty feet wide. It is the height and not the width that helps determines the difficulty.

My Conclusion:
I believe the word wider in the Jumping rule should actually refer to the distance across that is required to clear an obstacle or gap. For climbing only the height of the terrain and not the width would determine if there was a -1 modifier.

Other issues:
Q-This still leaves the issue of climbing larger terrain pieces. Is there a -1 modifier that applies due to the height of the terrrain piece?

The second paragraph of the climbing rules don't reference any. I'm inclined to say no since there is a built in chance to fall already.

Q-Are Moria Goblins affected by the modifier due to height of an obstacle or distance required to jump a gap?

I'm on the fence over this one. The rule is obviously intended to model the movement seen in the movies. The problem for me is that the special rule doesn't mention negating any modifiers to climbing or juping an obstacle that is taller or further across than the height of the model, but if you couple that with the height of a goblin and you actually make them less mobile than other races.

So I guess the right answer would be that the Cave Dwellers rule means that the model is assumed to have rolled a 6 and that result cannot be modified due to height being climbed or the distance being jumped.
Last edited by Smeagol on Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby febber » Fri Oct 21, 2011 2:58 pm

Two observations:

1. I don't remember the words "wider" or "width" being defined in the ORB. I have always used base size as the definition of width for such rules, as I believe that, not some futile attempt to get waist measurements for little metal soldiers, to be what GW intended. If the book says otherwise, boy does that change some stuff.

2. After rereading the rule, I am leaning towards the Gobbos not suffering the penalty, although after you pointed it out to me at the Waagh I did play it with the penalty. The difference is that between "rolling a 6" (which implies the modifier comes into play) and "rolling a 6 on the jump chart," which seems to imply the specific result of continued movement.

There is a high chance I will play gobbos at BBB since my next army won't be ready by then. I'm gonna ask Brent to make a determination on this so I and my opponents will know in advance.
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Postby Smeagol » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:41 pm

febber wrote:1. I don't remember the words "wider" or "width" being defined in the ORB.


Given they are dictionary words and used in that context, I seriously doubt you'll get one.

febber wrote:I have always used base size as the definition of width for such rules, as I believe that, not some futile attempt to get waist measurements for little metal soldiers, to be what GW intended. If the book says otherwise, boy does that change some stuff.


I also use the base of the model to define width, otherwise we end up with shoulder vs waist vs arms extended arguements. Base width is easy to define and measure. The rulebook doesn't define the width of a model. Everything that I recall (measuring Heroic Move influence, Stand FAst!, radius measurements for war machine hits, etc...) is done by the width of the base.

febber wrote:2. After rereading the rule, I am leaning towards the Gobbos not suffering the penalty, although after you pointed it out to me at the Waagh I did play it with the penalty. The difference is that between "rolling a 6" (which implies the modifier comes into play) and "rolling a 6 on the jump chart," which seems to imply the specific result of continued movement.


As I wrote in the last of my post, I agree with this interpretation. Though it is an intent versus rules as written discussion.

febber wrote:There is a high chance I will play gobbos at BBB since my next army won't be ready by then. I'm gonna ask Brent to make a determination on this so I and my opponents will know in advance.


Good idea. To be honest I'd like to get Brent's feedback on the entire issue of what is the definition of width when determing jump tests.
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