Heroic Moves

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Postby Gartl » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:49 pm

FYI - I would be quite happy if the TO's decide that models can choose to not take part in the heroic move and then can move normally during regular movement. Might points are spent to help a player, not hinder them in any way. Unfortunately, I just don't think this is the way the rules read.
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Postby jlong05 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:15 pm

Gartl wrote:FYI - I would be quite happy if the TO's decide that models can choose to not take part in the heroic move and then can move normally during regular movement. Might points are spent to help a player, not hinder them in any way. Unfortunately, I just don't think this is the way the rules read.

Which is how I am reading the rules now, although I agree that MIght should benefit a player and not hinder which was how I had been playing it.

I would however be fine with whatever teh TOs decide as long as its clear so everyone is playing it that way going forward.
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Postby tjski » Mon Jun 27, 2011 12:12 am

Okay,

Here is what I have uncovered on my fact finding mission.

Okay I think there are two thing at play here, First is the Heroic move that Heros can do and the "With me" rule. So lets look at each.

A Hero who makes a heroic action at the start of the Move phase will move before other models that are not making heroic actions. That is pretty clear, the hero moves first and to back this up I looked at the original three rule books prior to the One big Rulebook and found a interesting statement in the Return of the King book. It reads the same as the OBR but has this also:

It is very important that players try and move the Hero before the other models that are going to join him in the Heroic Move.

This was dropped from the OBR but I think makes a couple of things clear. First it was intended that the Hero must move first before anyone else, secondly it sounds like everyone within 6" of the Hero must move if he calls a "With Me".

So since this part was left out, I think I would have to change my mind on With Me moves. The rules states "and all friends within 6"will move at the same time" So to me that means that everyone with 6" of the Hero would move with the hero if he is calling a "With Me" move. The only exception would be for models that are outside of the 6" area of effect could not be part of it (since they did not start within 6")

So to John I was wrong, it looks like everyone would have to move if they are within 6" of a Hero calling With Me. But if only the Hero moves and does not call With Me, than all other models may move freely ending where ever they move to.

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Postby thorhak » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:43 am

Before reading Tim's latest entry to this subject matter I was leaning the same way. In the past, I too have played that non-hero troops within 6" inches of the Hero can choose as to whether or not they will follow the Hero calling the Heroic Move.

But after Gary so clearly printed out the verbiage, the key word being "will" it made sense to me that all parties within the 6" area MUST go with the leader. I mean in real life terms, not that I have any military experience, but I could only imagine the consequences should an infantry-person choose to disobey a Captain's command....were talking court martialling, dishonorable discharges and maybe even grounds for mutiny! :twisted:
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Postby Jobu » Mon Jun 27, 2011 10:47 am

Now, I do not have the ORB in front of me but I think it is also important to point out that Saruman has a heroic move exception(i.e. special rule 'consuming rivalry' regarding heroic actions by Gandalf) that really does seem to lend credence to "with me=all friends within 6" " interpretation. Are there any other special rules which may help clarify this? My group has always played it as a choice left up to the player about which models do/do not move in a "with me".
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Postby Smeagol » Mon Jun 27, 2011 2:01 pm

I can't give any better insight than has already been given. This same debate occurred amongst the Ringwraiths back in December of 2008. Checking my notes on that discussion The GWUK Games Designers stated they had provided the information to the UK GT organizer(s) so they could publish a rules clarification on the subject in their house rules for that year's event.

I don't have a copy of that set of House Rules in my collection of LOTR FAQs. I think Frank does as I think that was the year he attended the LOTR UK GT.
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Postby febber » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:23 am

Thread Necro Alert:

I somehow missed this topic way back, but thought I'd chime in now since it may apply to the Indy GT FAQ.

This is not a new discussion. As Tim Hixon points out, this was all rehashed well back on TLA forums with people who were part of the playtesters among others. Indeed, that discussion also included the issue of whether the hero had to move first (given the rule language of other figures moving "at the same time"). I agreed with the interpretation Tim H came up with and that Gary L supports above, for the same reason. While it is overly restrictive, it is the only interpretation that gives full meaning to the language of the rule, and rule language is always the first and foremost key to interpretation.

A few summary comments:

DrunkenSamurai wrote:
Gartl wrote:
"and all friends within 6"/14cm will move at the same time."


Once again this intrepratation ignores a very clear section of the rule, ""and all friends within 6"/14cm will move at the same time.". This does not state that friendly models "may" move, it states that they "will" move.


The word 'will' is not the key part of this rule. The key part is 'at the same time' which reinfoces the need for everyone who is participating in the Heroic move to move before any other actions take place. So in the case of multiple HM you would move all the models for one hero before the models for another HM. I do not see this as a requirement for all models within 6" of a hero being requires to move.


All parts of a rule are the "key" parts of the rule. "Will" means must. It is "mandatory" language. It doesn't support a "take your pick" kind of interpretation.

jlong05 wrote:What if I have several Heroes within 6" of each otehr where their heroic moves could impact the same models. Does the first Hero counter all possibles from the second hero since the first hero calling With me would force all to move with him, even though I wanted to move some with each hero separately? Such as counters to my opponents heroic move?


In the case of overlapping heroics, models are still complying with the rule so long as they follow it with respect to the hero they are moving with. I would move everyone with the first hero that was eligible to move with him anyway as the proper interpretation. As a tactical matter, it doesn't make much sense to call multiple heroics unless some of the models will end up outside of 6 inches from the first moving hero, and these figures would have to move with the second hero.

2. Tim K is correct that the ORB language changed slightly from the ROTK rulebook. However, the language about moving the hero first is a tactical comment - it reflects that if the hero is first charged by another model, the heroic move is lost. Indeed, that comments supports the exact opposite interpretation. Of course we have decided that as a matter of FAQ the hero will move first in a heroic (or at least "execute" first even if that means not moving). We looked at that language way back and concluded it didn't really lead to any clarification, especially since it was dropped by the designers (who generally copied language verbatim when no change was intended).

Smeagol wrote:I don't have a copy of that set of House Rules in my collection of LOTR FAQs. I think Frank does as I think that was the year he attended the LOTR UK GT.


I've been through about three computers since then but am trying to dig up the 2008 house rule document.
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Postby wynr » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:18 pm

Can I just claim that some of my models are peeved at the hero, and thus do not consider him (or her) friendly? lol

Do the rules define what is a friendly model?

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Postby Smeagol » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:50 pm

Sure. Not an enemy. :)

Reference Grima's special rules as well as Denethor's. They switch sides during the game and thus become friendly/unfriendly based upon certain criteria.
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