Heroic Moves

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Heroic Moves

Postby Gartl » Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:39 am

Conflicting interpretations of how heroic moves work came up at ToS. Tim's interpretation and John's were the issue of debate, so I decided to read the section very carefully and to get others input. So here goes.

From the section on heroic moves, it states;

"A hero who makes a heroic action at the start of the Move phase will move before other models that are not making heroic actions."
This is pretty straight forward. Heroic moves take place before regualr moves.

"In addition, the Hero can shout "With me" as he moves,"
This states that calling "With me" is optional (can being key here) and the hero can take the heroic move by himself if the player wishes.

"and all friends within 6"/14cm will move at the same time."
This one is trickey as it makes it sound like friends must move if "With me" is called (ALL friends WILL...)

"Friends moving in this way must begin and end their move within 6"/14cm of the Hero who is making the heroic action,"
Very clear statement here. Friends that partcipate in the heroic move MUST BEGIN and END within 6" of the hero.

"otherwise they cannot move with him."
This is where the trouble comes. Earlier it stated that they must move if he calls "With me" and that they must begin and end within 6". Now it makes it sound like it is optional. So to make this last statement work, friendly models that start outside of 6" cannot be part of the heroic move, only models that start within 6" which is clearly stated. AND models that start within 6" MUST end within 6" or they cannot take part in the heroic move.

So the debate is thus; Tim says they friends may choose to not take part in the heroic move, but if they do not then they must end outside of 6" of where the hero ends his movement.

John says that they can choose to not move with the hero and may move during regular movement and may begin and end within 6" of the hero.

A third interpretation could be that they must participate in the "With me" or not move at all.

Having broken it down by each sentence, and to make each sentence work, I think Tim's interpreatation is the correct one in that if a friend chooses to not participate in the "With me" then they cannot violate the rule about beginning and ending within 6". This can only be accomplished by ending their move more than 6" from the hero.

Thoughts?
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Postby tjski » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:39 am

Gary,

Well you know how I see it.

Tim K
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Postby Gartl » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:16 am

Tim it is not a matter of how people see it, it is a matter of how the rule reads. The rule is pretty clear that if a model begins and ends within 6" of the hero then it must move with the hero. Do you read it differently? If so please explain your logic so that I can understand.
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Re: Heroic Moves

Postby jlong05 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:28 am

Gartl wrote:"otherwise they cannot move with him."
This is where the trouble comes. Earlier it stated that they must move if he calls "With me" and that they must begin and end within 6". Now it makes it sound like it is optional. So to make this last statement work, friendly models that start outside of 6" cannot be part of the heroic move, only models that start within 6" which is clearly stated. AND models that start within 6" MUST end within 6" or they cannot take part in the heroic move.

A third interpretation could be that they must participate in the "With me" or not move at all.

Really it breaks down to the last point you brought up. Are friendly models, within 6" of the hero, not calling a Heroic move themselves REQUIRED to move or not.

My interpretation is thatthey are not all required, but if they do move they are then contrained to teh end in 6" range rule.

The last part of the rule you quoted states this same requirement, however it dos not impact models that would normally move on their own as part of the normal move phase. This is clarified as part of this section "AND models that start within 6" MUST end within 6" or they cannot take part in the HEROIC move." Clearly if the model didn't move during the Heroic move, they did not participate in it. It is regardless of where they are now located during their normal move.
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Postby Guardian of Ecthelion » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:41 am

Those rules simply apply to the Heroic movement.
No where does it say that I choose not to move them then I have to end up outside 6 inches of the hero.
Once the regular movement phase starts those models that didn't participate are free to move where ever they want. There are no restrictions other than the amount of inches you are allowed to move.
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Postby Gartl » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:18 pm

No where does it say that I choose not to move them then I have to end up outside 6 inches of the hero.


Except this is ignoring the part that says "All friends Will". This is pretty clear that if they start within 6" they must move with the hero. It then states the rules about where they start and end. If a model chooses to not move with the hero (keeping in the mind the rules require that they must if they begin and end within 6") then the only two options left are for the model to not move at all (thus having really taken its move, just not having actually moved) or it must end more than 6" away. Saying that they can move after the heroic, and assuming they started within 6", ignores the requirement that they must move with the hero if he calls "With me".
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Postby Gartl » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:20 pm

"and all friends within 6"/14cm will move at the same time."


Once again this intrepratation ignores a very clear section of the rule, ""and all friends within 6"/14cm will move at the same time.". This does not state that friendly models "may" move, it states that they "will" move.
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Postby DrunkenSamurai » Sun Jun 26, 2011 12:46 pm

Gartl wrote:
"and all friends within 6"/14cm will move at the same time."


Once again this intrepratation ignores a very clear section of the rule, ""and all friends within 6"/14cm will move at the same time.". This does not state that friendly models "may" move, it states that they "will" move.


The word 'will' is not the key part of this rule. The key part is 'at the same time' which reinfoces the need for everyone who is participating in the Heroic move to move before any other actions take place. So in the case of multiple HM you would move all the models for one hero before the models for another HM. I do not see this as a requirement for all models within 6" of a hero being requires to move.
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Postby Gartl » Sun Jun 26, 2011 2:04 pm

The word 'will' is not the key part of this rule


What about the word "all". That seems pretty clear. No matter how you read it, no where does it say that freindly models may choose to not move with the hero if he calls "With me". I am not seeing where people are coming to the conclusion that friendly models can choose to not move with the hero when that part of the rule is actually quite clear.
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Postby jlong05 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 3:48 pm

Again, the interpretation is based on the question:

Are friendly models within 6" of a Hero making a "With Me" Heroic move required to move. If they are required to move(or forfeight) their move, then I woudl agree with the interpretation you are presenting, however the last statement: "Friends moving in this way must begin and end their move within 6" of the Hero who is making the heroic action, otherwise they cannot move with him. This would imply it is possible to begin within 6" but not be possible to move and stay within 6". As such they are excluded from the heroic move, but does this then mean they are unable to act during their move since they couldn't in the Heroic? If they CAN still act, but started within 6", then why can't other models within 6" also choose to not act? Additionally, why must a model move during a Heroic action. What if I have several Heroes within 6" of each otehr where their heoric moves could impact the same models. Does the first Hero counter all posisbles from the second hero since the first hero calling With me woudl force all to move with him, even though I wanted to move some with each hero seperatly? Such as counters to my opponents heroic move?

If the requirement is that all models within 6" that can possibly move and remain within 6" MUST move, then there is little discussion left, except to clarify if that then means that models within 6" that cannot remain in 6", can they move during a normal move. Additionally, when faced with a multiple Heroic action, what are the rules for movement since its possible to countermand the above rule of MUST be in 6 and stay in 6, if the interpretation is that if you do not move you must remain outside 6"

This would need to be determined by the TOs for the various events and posted in teh shared FAQ I think so all players are aware of these determinations.
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Postby Gartl » Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:58 pm

I agree with your analysis and it brings up a good question about multiple heroic moves. To address the first part:

If the requirement is that all models within 6" that can possibly move and remain within 6" MUST move

From the rule as written ""all friends within 6"/14cm will move at the same time." makes it fairly clear to me that if they can meet the requirements of the movement then they must move with the hero IF he calls "With me". The "all" and "will" seem pretty definative. If the rules said "friends within 6" may take part in the heroic move" it would be very obvious that they don't have to.

As to the multiple heros calling heroic moves, the hero is not required to call "With me" as the first part of the second sentence makes it clear that a hero "can" shout "With me". If a hero does not then the hero would move by himself and then the second hero and friendly troops within 6" would move together if that hero called "With me". If a hero were to call "With me" and another hero within 6" that could also end within 6" also called a heroic move it would be a waste as they hero would have moved with the first heroic move.

So to me it comes down to exactly what you asked, "can the model move during the normal move if it ends outside of 6"" or must it move with heroic move if it can end within 6"? Tim's answer seems fairly generous to me as the strict intrepretation would be that if the model begins within 6" and can end within 6" that it must take part in the heroic move.

The TO's need to come to some sort of agreement as it would be nice to have everyone playing by the same intrepretation in all the indy tournaments.
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Postby BrentS » Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:41 pm

I'm sitting back and just observing the discussion around this. I will incorporate this into the FAQ document that we use for Adepticon and BBB. However, I'm still waiting to hear a couple of our rules lawyers opinions too :wink:
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Postby Guardian of Ecthelion » Sun Jun 26, 2011 8:27 pm

Gartl wrote:I agree with your analysis and it brings up a good question about multiple heroic moves. To address the first part:

If the requirement is that all models within 6" that can possibly move and remain within 6" MUST move


So to me it comes down to exactly what you asked, "can the model move during the normal move if it ends outside of 6"" or must it move with heroic move if it can end within 6"? Tim's answer seems fairly generous to me as the strict intrepretation would be that if the model begins within 6" and can end within 6" that it must take part in the heroic move.

The choice was made not to yell with me, Not yell with and not move, If the hero does not yell, the model can the move as normal. This should be fairly simple.
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Re: Heroic Moves

Postby Guardian of Ecthelion » Sun Jun 26, 2011 9:00 pm

Gartl wrote:

So the debate is thus; Tim says they friends may choose to not take part in the heroic move, but if they do not then they must end outside of 6" of where the hero ends his movement.

John says that they can choose to not move with the hero and may move during regular movement and may begin and end within 6" of the hero.


Thoughts?


Here is the root of the problem the friends aren't doing the choosing! The hero makes the choice for them. If he doesn't yell with me they move as normal.
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Re: Heroic Moves

Postby jlong05 » Sun Jun 26, 2011 10:45 pm

Guardian of Ecthelion wrote:
Gartl wrote:

So the debate is thus; Tim says they friends may choose to not take part in the heroic move, but if they do not then they must end outside of 6" of where the hero ends his movement.

John says that they can choose to not move with the hero and may move during regular movement and may begin and end within 6" of the hero.


Thoughts?


Here is the root of the problem the friends aren't doing the choosing! The hero makes the choice for them. If he doesn't yell with me they move as normal.


I admit my interpretation was from how I originally was introduced to the game. After further review of the rules, I am more convinced that Tim 'MAY' be partially right (in that models must move if they can, but do not get to choose), however I think then that the following is the correct RAW interpretation:

1. Hero calls a Heroic move. (May choose to move of call 'With Me'.
1a. No 'With Me', Hero completes his move and no other models are affected.
1b. 'With Me' is called. Identify all affected friendly models(ie all models within 6" - This would include other Heros, making multiple Heroic moves important to establish the correct order as the others would need to move prior to a 'With Me' call.)

2. Move the Hero FIRST.

3. Proceed to move all originally affected models with the Hero to remain within 6". Models originally within 6" but who are unable to complete a move to remain in 6" would be unaffected by the 'With Me' call since they cannot complete a valid move with the Hero. However if a model CAN move and remain within 6" of the hero, the model MUST complete that move and will follow the Hero calling 'With Me'.


This interpretation is 'strict' in that friendly models(both Hero and Warrior) DO NOT get to choose to take part if a with me call. The RAW indicate that ALL friendly models WILL move 'if they can'. This means that multiple Heros within 6" of each other CANNOT both make 'With Me' moves but can both make Heroic moves, as long as the 'With Me' call is completed last.


After further evaluation, I believe the above is the correct RAW interpretation, whether or not that was the intent of the designers. Additionally, the further evaluation of its affect seems to be the fairest way to play this.

What do the rest of you all think?
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