Dragon and Breathe Fire

Debate all the finer points of our fine hobby under the gaze of the Lidless Eye...

Dragon and Breathe Fire

Postby Smeagol » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:35 am

Okay you Indy TOs I have another one for you. While considering forces not typical for me and after reading one of BlackMist's dragon and HArad army list discusions on TLA the following occurred to me.

Khazad-Dum wrote:Breathe Fire. Some Dragons exhale great gouts of flame that can easily consume any who fight them. Each time a Dragon breathes fire, it expends a point of Will. Treat the Dragon’s fiery breath as a bow with a range of 12"/28cm. If the shot hits, the target and any model (Good or Evil) within 2"/4cm suffer a Strength 10 hit (Fate rolls may be taken as normal). Any model that suffers a wound caused by Dragon breath is automatically slain.


Note that you "Treat the Dragon’s fiery breath as a bow" and then apply all the rules for bows to the equation. I take 10+ Haradrim archers and add a fire breathing dragon to the mix. By strict interpretation of the rules (read as written) you double the range of the dragon's fiery breath attack. Of course you need a 6 to hit and you only have three shots aseach shot requires a Will point. Still a 3 to 5 to hit can be Mighted up to a 6 and you gut an opposing force that is bunched up early in the game. Roll well enough and you can disperse or even break a force before you even engage regardless of any Pall of Darkness/Cast Blinding Light.

So I am expecting the Indy GT House Rules to change the rules to the game again. :)
User avatar
Smeagol
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:20 pm

Postby BrentS » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:54 am

Um... yea. A dragon's breathe would not be allowed to contribute to a Volley Fire at any event I'm running. I don't care what the "RAW" interpretation is. A haradrim bow and a dragon's breathe are not the same type of "bow". Bring 10 firebreathing dragons in base to base contact and maybe we can talk.

To me its obvious and the intent (and no I can't show you where intent is defined in the rules :wink: ) that a dragon's breathe is intended to be a shooting attack like a bow (i.e. shoot in the shoot phase, can't move more than half)
User avatar
BrentS
 
Posts: 6295
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:38 pm

Postby Smeagol » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:00 am

Volley Firing with a dragon was mentioned and promptly ignored during playtesting. :)

Not that I disagree with you, analyzing stuff is what I do for a living and it bleeds over into my games and life. Much to my wife's chagrin.
User avatar
Smeagol
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:20 pm

Postby BrentS » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:01 am

Smeagol wrote: Much to my wife's chagrin.
:D
User avatar
BrentS
 
Posts: 6295
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:38 pm

Postby Smeagol » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:01 am

Now for another one. Can a dragon breathe fire "over the shoulder" of another friendly model in base contact?

Again it's treated as a bow and every model except the Mumakil have the same size or smaller bases.
User avatar
Smeagol
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:20 pm

Postby BrentS » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:25 pm

Smeagol wrote:Now for another one. Can a dragon breathe fire "over the shoulder" of another friendly model in base contact?

Again it's treated as a bow and every model except the Mumakil have the same size or smaller bases.


That one is interesting... I'd want to think about it but I think I'd probably allow it. Not sure why a dragon would be "hiding" behind a model but it would probably be allowed.
User avatar
BrentS
 
Posts: 6295
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:38 pm

Postby Smeagol » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:00 pm

Using a Drake as cover from enemy bow fire.
User avatar
Smeagol
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:20 pm

Postby BrentS » Wed Jun 22, 2011 1:16 pm

Smeagol wrote:Using a Drake as cover from enemy bow fire.
Now that is a big shoulder :)
User avatar
BrentS
 
Posts: 6295
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:38 pm

Postby Gartl » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:36 pm

We have been playing incorrectly in that I have been having Beregond use volley fire with rangers and Tim has been allowing it. As Josh pointed out at ToS, they must be the same type of bow and therefore Beregond cannot volley with the Rangers. The same is true with the dragon as it is a bow with a range of 12" which is different from any other bow in the game. Therefore, under strict interpretation, the dragon could only volley fire with nine other models that have 12" range bows.

And yes, it could fire over another models shoulder (or head as the case may be).
Last edited by Gartl on Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing. - Boromir FOTR
User avatar
Gartl
 
Posts: 1054
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:31 am

Postby jlong05 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:39 pm

Gartl wrote: Therefore, under strict interpretation, the dragon could only volley fire with nine other models that have 12" range bows.

Technically, 9 other models that have a strength 10 bow with 12" range.

Good luck!
The only "hobby" GW is interested in is lining their pockets with your money.
User avatar
jlong05
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2008 8:02 pm
Location: Glendale, AZ (In a lead-lined fridge)

Postby Smeagol » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:19 pm

From a rules perspective as written I believe you're wrong. Not that I think Dragons should be allowed to volley nor is it a particularly effective use of their Will.

Treat as bow = bow
Elven Bow (AKA Citadel Guard Longbows) <> bow
Orc bows <> bow
Crossbow<> bow

So Dwarven Longbows can volley with other bows as they are the same weapon type per the "treat as bow" rule.

Likewise the Hasharin blowpipes are treated as bows not blowpipes. You could concievably volleyfire with them.

Please do not put our prejudices into rules. GW has enough problems with writing them without us skewing them with our personal prejudices/prefereneces about how the rules should work. Since this is an Indy GT House Rule discussion I'm bringing up the issue so the T.O.s can make an informed decision accordingly. I may not agree with the decision, but at least we know the rules going into any given event.

I know several UK GT players would say you're all wrong and that Dragons can volley fire. So obviously this is not a clear cut Q&A.
User avatar
Smeagol
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:20 pm

Postby Smeagol » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:20 pm

Gartl wrote:We have been playing incorrectly in that I have been having Beregond use volley fire with rangers and Tim has been allowing it. As Josh pointed out at ToS, they must be the same type of bow and therefore Beregond cannot volley with the Rangers. The same is true with the dragon as it is a bow with a range of 12" which is different from any other bow in the game. Therefore, under strict interpretation, the dragon could only volley fire with nine other models that have 12" range bows.

And yes, it could fire over another models shoulder (or head as the case may be).
Beregond is using an Elven Bow not a Bow. So in his case it's not a rules issue rather a weapon issue. He could add his Longbow to elven archers to Volley Fire since a Citadel Guard Longbow is another name for an Elven Bow.
User avatar
Smeagol
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:20 pm

Postby Gartl » Wed Jun 22, 2011 3:28 pm

In the rule on volley fire it states " They can do this as long as they all have the same kind of bow (elf bow, bow, dwarf bow, orc bow, etc,)". That is pretty explicit in it's requirement that they all be the same kind of bow.

It is clear to me that dragon breath is a pretty unique type of bow and would therefore not be allowed to volley fire unless you brought ten fire breathing dragons, but then you wouldn't have an opponent ;-)
It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing. - Boromir FOTR
User avatar
Gartl
 
Posts: 1054
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:31 am

Postby Gartl » Wed Jun 22, 2011 4:31 pm

Another thought to consider is that the volley fire rule is very specific about only "bows" being able to volley fire. It even mentions "groups of bowmen", "bow-armed models", "same kind of bow", "bows firing", etc. The dragon rules do not state (and I think one thing we can agree on) that a dragon actually possess a bow. Instead, its breath weapon is "treated" as a bow (for purposes of range, trying to hit using shooting skill, etc), but does not state that it actually has a bow. Therefore the question is irrelevant as a dragon is not "bow armed".
It is a strange fate that we should suffer so much fear and doubt over so small a thing. - Boromir FOTR
User avatar
Gartl
 
Posts: 1054
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 6:31 am


Return to Rules Discussions (LotR)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests