Grey Knights

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Postby n00bzilla99 » Thu May 05, 2011 11:25 am

I do apologize for the somewhat negative tone that my post will take but here goes.

Quite frankly, I don't see GK as much of a threat as Guard player (My Tyranids fear them dearly, that's a different story) especially with some of the lists I have seen here that have models counts as low as 14. Let's face it, Grey Knights are marines when it comes down to it, marines with lots of cool toys. Even with Wound allocation, a brick of firepower is going to drop 2, 3 or 4 guys and suddenly that last Paladin isn't so scary. Likewise, 2 vehicles really aren't that good when you're facing a wall of them.

A list like Greg's that has more models including just some PA ones is still a bit lacking on the numbers side and GK die just like any other marine when it comes down to it. They hate AP3, 2 or 1, and large blasts are to avoided like the plague. Any army that has a good bit of shooting should be able to easily cripple a GK army and then just blast it away at range.

Generalissimo Fred wrote:HQ - Librarian
EL - Ven Dread w/ assault cannon, psybolt ammo
EL - Vindicare Assassin
TR - 10 GK's, psybolt ammo, psycannon, razorback with psybolt ammo
TR - 10 Termies, halberds, 2 psycannons
HV - 10 GK's, 4 psycannons, razorback, psybolt ammo
HV - Crusader, multi-melta, psybolt ammo


This list is what I see as a better, more balanced list. Has more guys, transports, and things to spread out the incoming fire it will receive. My suggestion? Lose the venerable and turn it into a Psyrifleman and use the extra points somewhere else.

Once again, I apologize if my tone came off incredibly negative, but some of these lists just aren't scary at all to certain armies, and certainly look like one trick ponies in my honest opinion. Grey Knights can make some fearful take-all-comers lists, but from what I've seen, low model counts is NOT the way to go.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu May 05, 2011 12:52 pm

Brew your comments are good. I think for some the Holy Grail of 40k is a low model count army they can transport easily, paint quickly and still play competitive games. It's elusive, but we can always try.

Here is a trick I've learned from playing low model count Blood Angels. You don't need to start on the board... ever. If I can shrink the game down to 3 turns, then low model count armies don't have such an inherent tactical disadvantage. I think Psychic Communion, with it's +1 or -1 decided on after the reserve roll, can go a long way in limiting the turns my opponent can have a shooting phase.

Paladin lists suffer mostly from mobility. Yes they will have low model counts, but they will have a small footprint on the board for their points cost. At 2 wounds and a 2+/5+ with a 4+ FnP and possibly a 3+ cover save, I think we could tailor a list to make them incredibly survivable. Effective? Maybe not, but definitely survivable.

IG would need to get multiple lascannons or a demolisher cannon into the Paladins to do damage. I don't see autocannons, multilasers or even battle cannons doing much damage. 2+ armor and 4+ FnP and 20+ wounds is to much. Kaldor can suck up the lone lascannon shot so 2+ wounds are required to get to a Paladin. Even then the Librarian could have them saving with a 3+ cover save. The question is can the Paladin unit do enough damage to justify it's exsistence. With almost 1000pts tied up in one unit, the rest of the GK army will have to be cheap. The one thing it is not good at.

I think, against Guard, in KP missions the GK Paladin army will do very well. In Capture and Control (is that the 2 objective mission?) it will have an advantage in locking up at least a draw and in the multiple objective mission it will need some help.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Thu May 05, 2011 2:58 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:Brew your comments are good. I think for some the Holy Grail of 40k is a low model count army they can transport easily, paint quickly and still play competitive games. It's elusive, but we can always try.

Here is a trick I've learned from playing low model count Blood Angels. You don't need to start on the board... ever. If I can shrink the game down to 3 turns, then low model count armies don't have such an inherent tactical disadvantage. I think Psychic Communion, with it's +1 or -1 decided on after the reserve roll, can go a long way in limiting the turns my opponent can have a shooting phase.


You have to start the GM on the board for this to work, since you can't use Psychic powers off the board. However, you move on the board and you're still that much further away, remember the opposing player doesn't have to do anything for 2 turns so why should he care?

Paladin lists suffer mostly from mobility. Yes they will have low model counts, but they will have a small footprint on the board for their points cost. At 2 wounds and a 2+/5+ with a 4+ FnP and possibly a 3+ cover save, I think we could tailor a list to make them incredibly survivable. Effective? Maybe not, but definitely survivable.


3+ cover if youre in cover if youre lucky, if you are taking cover, you aren't being effective and in my opinion, I'd rather just move back and out run you while shooting. Once the transports are gone, its a relatively easy sprint to the finish. I look at paladins like slow moving nob bikers with better armor.

IG would need to get multiple lascannons or a demolisher cannon into the Paladins to do damage. I don't see autocannons, multilasers or even battle cannons doing much damage. 2+ armor and 4+ FnP and 20+ wounds is to much. Kaldor can suck up the lone lascannon shot so 2+ wounds are required to get to a Paladin. Even then the Librarian could have them saving with a 3+ cover save. The question is can the Paladin unit do enough damage to justify it's exsistence. With almost 1000pts tied up in one unit, the rest of the GK army will have to be cheap. The one thing it is not good at.


I think it's save to say that the Guard can get all of those things quite easily and in a large quantity. As for the 3+ cover save, I wouldn't be concerned as a guard player, just shoot the unit that doesn't have the librarian while slowly manuevering around the paladins.

I think, against Guard, in KP missions the GK Paladin army will do very well. In Capture and Control (is that the 2 objective mission?) it will have an advantage in locking up at least a draw and in the multiple objective mission it will need some help.


Paladin armies MAYBE have the upper hand in KP, but in the other two? Quantity will win over quality. My guess is that it will as well in KP.
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Purgation

Postby Chubs » Sun May 08, 2011 3:40 pm

I'm curious on everyone's thoughts on a Rhino based purgation squad with Quad incinerators. I’m aware that it would take the slot of the ever popular psy rifle man, but does the unit have merit? I’ve seen comments online about maxing psy cannons, but quad s6 templates could over load a unit with saves just as good as plucking away for 3 turns, no?

Also, Fred’s notes about the dread. How about dread with Assault cannon and Psy bolts? You keep the DCCW for extra CC power, but also have 6 shots a turns

And lastly, S5 storm bolters on transports w/ psybolts . Worth it?
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun May 08, 2011 7:50 pm

The Purifier squad can give you everything a Purgation can give you for virtually the same price and you add +1 attack, fearless and cleansing flame. Unless your elites are used up, I would go with the Purifier squad to fill the roll of a Purgation squad.

Only two Incinerators can fire from a rhino at a time. You would need to get the 4 incinerators into a Chimera.

I like the Ven dread with assault cannon and psybolt ammo. The BS 5 gives you a bunch of hits and str 7 rending is the best anti-armor 14 in the game (when you fire 4 times from one gun). However the GK's already have a plethora of 24" range guns. The dread slot gives you the rare opportunity to get a 48" range gun.
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Postby muwhe » Mon May 09, 2011 11:50 am

Been going over the same sort of thoughts myself.

It's clear that 2x S8 TL Autocannon option is attractive on the dreads but I think there might be some merit to the AC, storm bolter, fist option especially if your planning to bring a Storm Raven. After the auto-include love affair nature of the Psyrifle dreads passes.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Mon May 09, 2011 4:18 pm

Psyrifles are great, but it's important to remember that they are still only AV12 vehicles. They may be able to ignore shaken and stunned but sitting at AV12, a couple of long range AT guns will go right through and destroy them quickly, then your AT has drastically dropped per dread. This is why Purgation squads with Psycannons + Psybolt ammo look great to me. Bascially strength 8 with 2 or 3 shots a piece if I am correct, so thats looking like a better devastator squad if you are really looking into winning ranged firefights.
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Postby GregSwanson » Mon May 09, 2011 6:54 pm

I lve the ven dread with ac hf and Psybolt. It is almost unkillable and then next turn it ignores it's shaken and stunned results most of the time it becomes a troop with GM strategy and is a pain forbmy opponent to get rid off.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Mon May 09, 2011 6:55 pm

I don't think psybolt ammo works on Psycannons. They stay str 7. Also the big weakness of the GK's is their lack of range in firefights. Anything that can give them a 48" range can engage the enemy asap in Dawn of War as opposed to having to close 12"-18" of board space before firing.

I like the Ven dread with assault cannon to and having him ride in a stormraven will get him where he wants to go. I think you would need to pair that combo with something a tad more frightening to draw fire away from the Stormraven. Maybe a Land Raider varient with some terminators and a special character.
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Postby muwhe » Mon May 09, 2011 7:27 pm

big weakness of the GK's is their lack of range


That's the heart of it .. and your left with two choices...

Attempt to minimize the weakness..with some offset choices

or

embrace what you are and excel at your strengths.

Both are valid just need to have a plan. Who needs an over 30" range on a 4x6 table anyway? : )
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Postby GregSwanson » Mon May 09, 2011 7:53 pm

I have been really happy with the odd army I have been using. I have the master ride with a regular group of termies in a LRC mean while the Libby rides in the raven with some purifiers with Falchions and the dread he casts sanctuary ton keep the raven alive and casts quick and might before the purifiers assault.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Mon May 09, 2011 9:19 pm

GregSwanson wrote:I love the ven dread with ac hf and Psybolt. It is almost unkillable and then next turn it ignores it's shaken and stunned results most of the time it becomes a troop with GM strategy and is a pain forbmy opponent to get rid off.


I'm not much a fan of Venerable dreads... while with the GK special power it becomes almost impossible to stop from firing (unless you blow off the arms or blow it up) but it still faces the problem of being AV12, and in a GK army, having 195 invested in a single AV12 vehicle that has to be exposed to enemy fire in order to get off shots, just seems like it's taking a lot of risk.

Also, I'm not sure you can make it scoring since vehicles cannot be scoring unless they are transports with troops inside. This needs to be FAQ'ed.

Generalissimo Fred wrote:I don't think psybolt ammo works on Psycannons.


Are you sure? That just seems odd to me, if not, that makes no sense.

Generalissim Fred wrote:Also the big weakness of the GK's is their lack of range in firefights.


Agreed, any opponent with range will simply outshoot you. You need to close that gap and that will most certainly prove impossible without taking some casualties.
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Postby GregSwanson » Mon May 09, 2011 9:33 pm

It says that any walkers can be made scoring in the codex no need for a FAQ. Also psybolt ammo does not work on psycannons.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Mon May 09, 2011 10:42 pm

GregSwanson wrote:It says that any walkers can be made scoring in the codex...


More specifically it says they can claim objectives as if they are troops. The rulebook says that vehicles, no matter if they are troops, cannot score.

You can claim that codex > rulebook, but that's just not true here, because the rulebook states that even if a vehicle is troops, it still cannot claim objectives. An example would be a Death Company Dreadnought that is a troops choice, but still cannot score. Even if treated as a troops choice, the BRB says that vehicles may not score.
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Postby GregSwanson » Mon May 09, 2011 10:59 pm

You are right it doesn't say the dreadnoughts are troops it says it can claim objectives as if they are troops. How is that not clear? And I would think that codex would trump rulebook because it lists exceptions to the rule. Plus the rulebook only talks about troops that are vehicles not be able to score. The dreadnought is not a troop choice he is either heavy or elite. He just has the ability to claim objectives.......
This is like arguing that a daemonic herald with mastery of sorcery could not use two shooting attacks. The rulebook says that no non monstrous creature may make two shooting attacks. However the mastery of sorcery is the exception allowing the Daemon to make two attacks. By your logic the herald would be unable to do so.
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