Grey Knights

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Grey Knights

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed May 04, 2011 8:11 am

How many people have seriously tried the new Grey Knights? My first reaction to them is "Boy are they expensive". There are so many neat toys that cost a lot of points. Some things are very situational. some things are unique but lack staying power.

I'll start with what I like.

1. Fortitude. Why would you ever buy extra armor now? This power makes a light mech list very viable. Thank God the GK's can't have Predators and Vindicators or else the game would come crashing down on itself. Not really, but I suspect the GK's would become a silver version of BA or SM armor spam. I've read about the love given to fortitude powered rifleman dreads, especially Ven Dreads which can get more shakes and stuns. I agree it is a powerful unit. I might prefer the dread to have a CCW and one shooting weapon to give it more versatility.

2. Psybolt ammo. Heavy Bolter razorbacks that are strength 6 is awesome. You can pen. enemy armor 11 and you can instant kill IG heavy weapon teams. The Psybolt ammo makes the standard razorback much more of an anti-tank weapon for armor 10 + 11. I know the love is also with the rifleman dreads taking psybolt ammo and I can't deny it is a powefull combo. I'm going to try a Ven dread with assault cannon and psybolt ammo. This gives the assault cannon str 7 and I can pen armor 14 much easier. It also keeps intact the dreads ability to assault and do damage.

Looking at the Psybolt ammo rule I think the best vehicle to give it to is a Land Raider Crusader. Now the Crusader has a str 7 assault cannon and str 5 hurricane bolters. I know the bolters will no longer be a defensive weapon, but 6 twin-linked str 5 shots (12 shots at 12") will do alot of damage to any target with wounds. I like this unit a lot.

I also like giving psybolt ammo to a large naked unit of Grey Knights. You don't have to add any psycannons to the unit and they can dedicate themselves to taking on enemy foot units in a firefight. 20 str 5 shots a turn will decimate all but the toughest units.

3. Lord Kaldor. He's expensive, but I think he's the only source for a storm shield in the codex. He's also tough as nails, T5, and immune to instant death. He can hold up almost any enemy unit in the game on his own. I only wish his sword was str 10 all the time to instant kill Thunderwolf Cav. Most of the other GK HQ's will suffer from a TWC with powerfist, but not this guy. All you need to overcome is only weakness (mobility) is that LR Crusader I was just talking about.

4. Purifiers. They are the best foot unit in the codex. They are an elite choice unless you take a special character so you quickly start to limit your army lists flexibility. They could very well be worth it though as 2 standard attacks, cleansing flame and 2 psycannons per 5 guys give you everything you want from a force org. slot.


Here is what I'm not to sure about.

1. Stormravens. They turned hellstrike missiles into mindstrike missiles and the tank lost it's appeal. The GK's don't need more anti-troop, they need anti-armor and the Stormraven lost it.

2. Pallidans. These guys look to be a stronger nob-biker unit with the ability to play the wound allocation trick and get FnP. They become about the same points cost, however they lack a decent invulnerable save (the nob bikers get a 3+ when they turboboost) and are slow. Their slowness might be mitigated by making them a tremendous shooting platform. 16 psycannon shots per turn on the move will get anyones attention. And a player could tailor their whole list to preserving these guys which might just work. A LR in front to block LOS and give the unit cover and a Librarian nearby to cast shrouding and make it a 3+ cover save. See now we are using 400pts to protect 650pts. This is usually not a good allocation of points.

3. The GK troop. They were a much better deal in the old codex. I understand they didn't have as many toys to play with, but for 25pts you got a ws5 str 6 marine who was fearless and had 2 attacks base. Now for 20pts you get a ws4 str 4 marine with 1 attack base, but a power weapon. The older version was a much better deal. These guys have become an almost liability in assault. I don't understand all the PW they get. They are suppoised to fight deamons for a living. Daemons have invulnerbale saves and ignore power weapons. If you want to fight daemons you need more attacks, not fewer attacks that daemons still get their save against. I guess going naked with psybolt ammo is your best bet.
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Postby CmdrVimes » Wed May 04, 2011 9:06 am

I've played then several times and, while they are fun, I've been disappointed. Against Mech Eldar with lots of AP 2 weapons, they are basically target practice for the Space Fairies. That thing that makes you roll three dice pretty much eliminates the neat psychic powers and unless you have a lot of cover on the table the lack of long range shooting is a big problem because the Eldar can make huge holes in your army befor you can take advantage most of the other fun stuff. A lot of outflanking and scout moves help, especially if you can get a dread close to the farseers, but the grand masters are pricy and you need to roll well on the D3. The lack of weapons that ignore invuls also makes them less effective against deamons than they used to be, especially if Fate Weaver is used. I do agree with everything ths Fred said. Sometimes they just seem like expensive space marines with less long range shooting.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed May 04, 2011 9:10 am

I played against them some. One strike squad and one interceptor squad defeated my daemons pretty handily. I could have had 6000 points and it wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed May 04, 2011 9:15 am

On the not-really-grey-knights Grey Knights, what about...

Cortez the Killer
Vindicare
2 chimeras w/ 3x melta henchmen+ 2 monkeys.
3 chimeras w/ psykers + 2 monkeys.
1 unit with mixed up CC henchmen (call it 5 assassins, 5 crusaders, and 2 eviscerator banishers)
1 assault transport for the above unit, pick land raider, storm raven, whatever.

The shooting this army puts out is scary good. 10 lascannons if you need them. big ol blast templates if you need them. Nice hard-hitting assault unit which can take a decent punch thanks to the crusaders.

Or maybe I'm just hoping this works cause I've already got the models, except the moneys and transport choice.
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Postby GregSwanson » Wed May 04, 2011 11:24 am

Fred
I have been playing an army I won at a charity auction. While not optimized it has been fun. I like the ven dread with ac and psybolt ammo to advance with my units. With the grand master making him scoring he sure is tough to kill. I have been using a storm raven but have not been impressed. I have been using twin las and twin mm to help with anti armor. I have learned one thing is that the missiles are great for rune priests and far seers/warlocks. The dread knight has been up and down. To get it were I really like it is too expensive. I LOVE the librarian. Either quicksilver might or rift in my phase and sanctuary and shrouding in yours. Plus the termies and purifiers have been brutal in assault. I also love the crusader as well. I would take them to the ATC but I have not been able to get the other units I want finished.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed May 04, 2011 12:30 pm

I limited the discussion to the Grey Knights. You could make an almost completely different army using the Inquisitor side. I'm not against throwing in a unit or two of the non-GK stuff, but I am more interested in the GK specific units.

I should have thrown the Dreadnight into the not sure catagory. I forgot about him.

Not sure about:

4. Dreadnight - This guy can be expensive, especially for what he can do. His shooting weapons aren't the greatest. He excells at anti-troop weapons, but the whole codex does that. If he had a good anti-tank weapon that would be better. I was really dissappointed with the heavy psycannon. It turns a 4 shot gun into a single shot template. I would rather have the regular psycannon on him with just a longer range.



I have been toying around with the codex for a few days and my initial list looks like this.

HQ - Kaldor
EL - Ven Dread w/ assault cannon, psybolt ammo
TR - 10 GK's, psybolt ammo, psycannon, razorback with psybolt ammo
TR - 10 Paladins, halberds, apothecary, 4 psycannons
HV - 10 GK's, 4 psycannons, razorback, psybolt ammo
HV - Crusader, multi-melta, psybolt ammo

This ridiculous list comes in at just over 2000pts. I try to make a shooting Paladin Deathstar which pumps out 16 psycannon shots a turn and uses the Land Raider and 2 Razorbacks to gain a cover save from most directions. The Ven Dread hangs around to deter assaulters and if anyone gets through the Paladins are initiative 6 with Kaldor as support.

I'm not sure about the list. I might be tugging at to many strategy strings all at once. I need to take out about 165ish points to get down to 1850. That probably means the 665pt Paladin squad should go, but now the list totally changes. I can see how a 10-man normal Termie squad would be more economical, remain a troop choice and save me about 215pts. I lose 8 psycannon shots and my deathstar is no more.

I think if I'm going to keep the Paladins I njeed to go full bore in their support. That means a Librarian with shrouding to give them a better cover save and might to get them to str 6 (with hammerhand) in combat. The WS 5 is nice to make sure what I hit will die. However I suspect I am paying to many points for the 2 wounds. Long Fangs can pummel me with missiles and each 1 I roll removes a 2-wound model (same as a cheaper 1-wound model). Are the 2-wounds worth it? I suupose only if I play the wound allocation shannigans and make all 10 have a different wargear. I hate when people do that to me so I shouldn't do that to them.

New list

HQ - Kaldor
EL - Ven Dread w/ assault cannon, psybolt ammo
TR - 10 GK's, psybolt ammo, psycannon, razorback with psybolt ammo
TR - 10 Termies, halberds, 2 psycannons
HV - 10 GK's, 4 psycannons, razorback, psybolt ammo
HV - Crusader, multi-melta, psybolt ammo


That brings me to 1800pts. Now is Kaldor worth it? He's a rock in combat and a wound sink for lone lascannon shots, but I think not. I like the idea of a Librarian with Shrouding (to get the 3+ cover save) and Might to get the 6 STR in combat. That saves me 125pts and I'm now 175 under. Say hello to my little friend the Vindicare assassin.


HQ - Librarian
EL - Ven Dread w/ assault cannon, psybolt ammo
EL - Vindicare Assassin
TR - 10 GK's, psybolt ammo, psycannon, razorback with psybolt ammo
TR - 10 Termies, halberds, 2 psycannons
HV - 10 GK's, 4 psycannons, razorback, psybolt ammo
HV - Crusader, multi-melta, psybolt ammo

Now I'm under 30pts and as I look at the list I've lost the Grand Strategy to get more scoring units. I think I needed that. I also see I am severely limited in my long range anti-tank. I need to get to within 24" of the enemy to shoot anything which means spending the first few turns running and not shooting. I suppose the Termies could go down to 7 and ride in the Crusader with the Librarian, but now I am defeating the purpose of the list and that's no good.

Oh well scrap this thought experiment and back to the drawing board.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed May 04, 2011 2:25 pm

I am considering a paladin army, actually. Without the codex, I don't know point costs, but something like:

Draigo
Librarian
10 paladins, all different, 4 psycannons
5 paladins
vindicare assassin
techmarine
psyfleman dread

20 models. I should be able to transport it, and a small display board, on my motorcycle. Would make travelling to out-of-state tournaments more fun :)
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed May 04, 2011 2:38 pm

Redbeard wrote:I am considering a paladin army, actually. Without the codex, I don't know point costs, but something like:

Draigo
Librarian
10 paladins, all different, 4 psycannons
5 paladins
vindicare assassin
techmarine
psyfleman dread

20 models. I should be able to transport it, and a small display board, on my motorcycle. Would make travelling to out-of-state tournaments more fun :)



That's about 1690pts depending on what goes into the 10 man paladin squad to make them different. I guessed 80pts. I also didn't add in any points for the techmarine becausde I don't know how much he is, but it should all fit including 2 more psycannon for the 5-man paladin squad.

Did anyone else notice they had a picture of a Conversion Beamer in the GK codex?
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Postby GregSwanson » Wed May 04, 2011 5:00 pm

I have been running
Master
Libby
Ven dread w/ac, hf and psybolts
Five purifiers w/ hammer, 3 x falchions and incinerator
Terminators w/ 2 halberds, 2 swords, incinerator, banner
5 man strike squad incinerator in razorback w/ tlc
Storm raven w/tlc and tlmm
LRC w/mm
Dread knight w/psycannon and incinerator

Not optimized by any means but what I have got painted. Usually put the terminators and master in LRC. Purifiers and dreadnought in raven deep strike the knight off the libby's skulls and have the strike squad drive near the LRC to keep off deep striking melta. The Libby either goes in the raider or raven depending on who I am playing. I went 2 - 1 - 1 at the invitational as the ringer. I own thunder wolves with all the force weapons. However loss was to space wolves because of rune priests shutting down powers. I would like to make the strike squad ten men with two psycannons in rhino so I can stick half in rhino and buy the purifiers the razorback for the other half. Probably will drop the knight he has been tasked with long fang removal and back field annoyance which he does quite well but ultimately dies to weight of fire. The terms and purifiers just run through hordes. Usually I put Libby in purifiers for quicksilver and might so they have 16 str 5 attacks at int 10 on charge plus hammer and the incinerators and stormbolters first. The terms have 8 str 5 int 6 power weapon attacks 4 int 5 str 5 power weapon attacks and then 8 str 5 int 4 power weapon attacks plus all the stormbolters and incinerator before hand. The problem has been only having 4 targets. Was thinking about dropping the master but his grand strategy has been nice, however I love the Libby. Any ideas Fred?
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed May 04, 2011 8:35 pm

2-1-1 isn't bad for a new army you are still learning. Has there been anything you have run up against that you felt your list had no tools to deal with? If not then I wouldn't change much.

I agree the Dreadnight could go, however if you feel he is drawing a ton of fire in the enemy backfield that means he is drawing away shots that could go to some of your other units. You have said the Termies and Purifiers are doing well. How much of that is due to them being ignored for the new big shiny toys you deploy (ie they shoot the dreadnight, ven dread and stormraven over the termies and purfiers)

At the very least I would give the LRC psybolt ammo.
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Postby GregSwanson » Wed May 04, 2011 9:13 pm

Fred what really hurts is the lack of melta. The one game I had a land raider tank shock my terminators, master and Libby and run them off the board because I wasn't able to stop it. Also the game I lost Big Tony shut down my powers with two rune priests, jaws the libby and two more terminators and force weaponed the dread night. Man I hate rune priests.
I think I need some melta bombs or something. Plus the storm raven's life expectancy is so low. I might be better off with two raiders.
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Postby GregSwanson » Wed May 04, 2011 10:55 pm

Fred
I was thinking something like this
Grandmaster Rad & Blind Grenades 190
Librarian Stave, Might, Quicksilver, Sanctuary, Shrouding 205
Purifiers (5) 3 x Falchions, Hammer, Incinerator 140
Razorback /Twin Heavy Bolters & Psybolt Ammo 50
Venerable Dreadnought w/Assault Cannon, Heavy Flamer & Psybolt Ammo 200
Terminators (5) 4 x Halberds, Banner, Incinerator 230
Strikesquad (10) 2 x Psycannon, Hammer, Psybolt Ammo 250
Rhino 40
Land Raider Crusader w/Multimelta & Psybolt Ammo 270
Land Raider w/Multimelta 265

Comes to 1840. I can always master craft some weapons. I could swap out the dreadnought for the dread knight w/ heavy psycannon and heavy incinerator and add some skulls as well. I just feel the dread is the only chance I have for holding up thunder hammer terminators. I use the stave because I am using the stock model and that is what it comes with.
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Postby Norbu the Destroyer » Wed May 04, 2011 11:00 pm

I actually stole an idea similar to Redbeards. I hate this codex for making the Deamons obsolete, so I am making a mockery list as follows.

Draigo

Libby
(ward stave and 5 powers)

5 paladins
(2 psycannons, apoth.,ward stave, hammer, halbreds, banner)

5 paladins
2 flamers, ward stave, apoth, hammer, falchions, banner)

Stormraven

Land Raider Redeemer



14 models, 1850. I have fought mech eldar, a couple charachter heavy wolf lists, angels, bugs, and it is 4-1-1. Those paladin units, even with just 5 are just cleaving through anything they touch. Something nasty sometimes hits first and does damage, other paladins help out. I send draigo and a squad in a Raider and they just split up and kill 2-3 units a turn.

With that few of models, it is amazing how balanced the games are. Usually 6-9 paladins die along with the libby and a vehicle, but usually the other army is in worse shape.

I think the grey knihts are beatable, but it is worth every point you pay in that codex. From what Ive seen, played, or fought against, their units are deadly, resilient, fast, work together, and you cant stun their vehicles. Psychic defense is now almost a must, and deep striking armies will become few and farther between, helping guard a bit.

Bugs have it tough, orks bad as well. Not sure of a natural predator....but on a side note, my Necrons have had some sucess against the grey knights, as the destroyers can outrange most things, mono was afraid of almost nothing, and the deciever was wasting the paladins at games end.

So hope with a grey knight list you dont bump into crons, and you should be ok.
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Postby GregSwanson » Wed May 04, 2011 11:07 pm

Hans
I would love to play that list with my bike army. I have enough sacrificial melta to kill you vehicles. Then it would be a torrent of more plasma and melta plus I am sure the thunder hammer terms would eat up the paladins or at least crush one unit. Plus I think you will face an up hill battle with IG. Also I have found wolves with their $&@€£ rune priests can screw the knights.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu May 05, 2011 5:24 am

Greg it sounds like yoy ran into a Rune Priest who was on fire. Jaws on 3 I4 models? Popping a T6 MC with a lone Priest? I wouldn't hold much stock in that game unless it happens 2-3 more times.

Wherever the Priest was the Stormraven could have hit him with the Mindstrike missiles. If he was hiding in a vehicle I can understand you don't have much to pop the transport first. If you lose the Stormraven, then the VenDread might be out of many games. He would have to lose his range 24 assault cannon for a range 48 weapon to get him into the game more.
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