Sunday Championship Yellow Error

AdeptiCon 2010 will be held March 26th-28th, 2010 at the Westin Lombard Yorktown Center in Lombard, IL. Visit the AdeptiCon website (www.adepticon.org) and start planning today!

Postby Matthias » Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:39 am

Fred,

What are you talking about? The final results are not being changed, just the Vegas invite...an in invite that is NOT going to anyone in Austin. Your accusations are offbase and offensive.

I have stated in public many times over I think this whole thing is bulls**t and that I question the author of BoK's motivations and intentions. Documenting one round of an event like this competely skews the results and does a diservice to the event as a whole. Dragging Tim and AdeptiCon through the internet mud to get blog hits does a massive diservice to everyone involved.

I am sorry Tim has been subjected to this. Character assassination on the Internet is a cowardly action.
Last edited by Matthias on Mon Apr 05, 2010 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:41 am

Matt said on Dakka " Hank had dinner with Larry and JWolf after the event. They mentioned they thought there was shadiness going on in the final game and they might have video proof. "

Would this have been pursued vigorously if dinner didn't happen? Show us thew timeline of events that were used to investigate this matter. Why is a 4 minute edited video used as evidence, where is the entire 2+ hour game? There are no answers for this right now. If a sweeping condemnation of Tim is going to be made, then all points of evidence must be presented for both sides, not cheery picked moments.

Tim loves this game. He had run a 40k church league in Milwaukee with mstly kids. I know he wanted to win that ticket to Vegas and now it is taken away from him. It is easy to cry the 'high road', but in the end internet gossiping has triumphed over due process and the call of the high road is a mask to cover it up. You people want an investigation, then a full investigation should have been done.

Matt I am offended by what the event has become. I am also tired of hearing the organizers call 'holier than thou' whenever something about Adepticon is called into question. Don't give me the 6 months of nonstop work line. You choose to do that, just as the players choose to dedicate a huge chunk of time and money to making their armies and attending. There is no reason to make the event to large if the time involved is such a burden to the organizers. I ran the Gladiator for 2 years I know the time commited from most involved. If it is so hard, then scale back the events. 240 is unwieldy and smacks of an ego driven agenda (we are the largest in the World!!!). Seriously bigger is not always better, as my wife would say. :wink:

Now a player who has had 4 minutes snipped from a 2 hour game is asked to give up his award to Vegas. Let's go through all 3 games of the next player who is getting the ticket. Tim's games were put under a microscope, let's put the next guys games through the same lense. It's only fair and it's what has started here.

As for the ticket not going to the Austin players, I know the Austin players are the greatest in the world. I can read that on your website. It can be said it is satisfying that the only way one of your crew can lose in the top game is through cheating. That is self serving enough. Mentioning to Hank after the fact is another way to sooth your ego. Heaven forbid your crew loses in the top game. Was this your motivation? I'll give you the benifit of the doubt that it wasn't on the forefront of your mind, but it could have been there and that's why you mentioned it to Hank. Possibly?
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Postby muwhe » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:01 am

Fortunately .. I have broad shoulders. :D

Mistakes happen. Knowing Tim, it is my firm belief that this was an honest mistake. However, liking Tim and knowing him doesn't change the fact that he played the wrong list, and won the event which with it came a qualifier spot to Vegas.

Tim actions here resolve this issue in the best possible manner for all involved and he should be commended for taking responsiblity for an honest mistake.
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Postby muwhe » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:22 am

Ok ..for clarity Fred. .. I had dinner with Larry and Jon along with 20 other folks immediately after breaking down the hall. Larry and Jon .. stuck around and helped with tear down loading the trailer along with a number of folks.

As with I don't know the 200+ conversations I have with all sorts Adepticon attendees .. we reflected on the weekend. What went well, what could have been better etc..

It was mentioned over dinner that the last game was video taped, and that there might be evidence of "cheating". Which was more of a heads up .. that might be appearing on the internet. To my knowledge no one had yet seen the video or what it showed and that was the end of it. I figured AdeptiCon would deal with it once we had all the facts in front of us.

At the end of 5+ days of being on my feet. Blisters on my toes, and not knowing if I was coming or going. I wanted a Steak dinner, and to get up to my room and do some drinking with friends. Which I managed to do till 4:30 am. :D
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Postby Matthias » Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:22 am

Really? It is the event you are offended by in all this?

Organizing the 40k events for 50 or 250 people takes exactly the same prep time (save terrain - thanks goes to Capital City - and the guy working at Staples printing packets). I only defend the integrity of all volunteers when someone attacks the convention with a self-serving agenda. To do any less would be irresponsible.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sat Apr 03, 2010 12:00 pm

I'm going to let this drop. From my perspective I'm saddened by this, but it's over.
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Postby Huoshini » Thu Apr 08, 2010 6:08 pm

you can drag down one person and look like an a**h*** but when you try to drag down and entire event with 1000+ attendees....thats just shamefull. This whole situation stinks to high heaven
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Postby MajorSoB » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:06 pm

It is good to see someone in this whole situation do the right thing. Tim you were wrong and you owned up to your mistakes. From what I saw you cheated, regardless of it being intentional or not, the fact remains that is what you did. Again it is good to see someone accept the consequences of their actions, but really this ruling should have come down from the tournament officials. Tim your actions here will go a long way in the gaming community to repair your reputation.

On the other side of the coin, I dont think there was anything wrong with the blood of kittens posting the videos of what transpired. Instead of listening to heresy, the viewer can watch the events unfold and draw their own conclusions. Myself, I would have expected a better grasp of the rules from an experienced player like Tim, and when the rules were in question during the fallback of the troops, why didnt anyone reach for a rule book? In regards to the list discrepancy, what is the Adepticon policy on illegal or incorrect lists? Most tournaments zero score that round and any previous rounds where the player is found on violation. What is the policy and was it applied?
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Sat Apr 10, 2010 6:39 pm

im you were wrong and you owned up to your mistakes.


Tim had an illegal list. This is correct, this is what he is owning up to.

On the other side of the coin, I dont think there was anything wrong with the blood of kittens posting the videos of what transpired


There is a problem with recording videos in their entirety in a tournament setting, ESPECIALLY only certain tables. If you're going to tape a table, you better be taping them all for cheating. Otherwise this isn't fair at all.

Myself, I would have expected a better grasp of the rules from an experienced player like Tim, and when the rules were in question during the fallback of the troops, why didnt anyone reach for a rule book?


I find it pretty bad nobody reached for a rulebook or called a judge, but according to Tim, he offered to call a judge over, the answer he got was no.
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Postby MajorSoB » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:17 pm

I dont want to start a flame war, but since you quoted me I will respond...

AdeptusBrewCityJoe wrote:I find it pretty bad nobody reached for a rulebook or called a judge, but according to Tim, he offered to call a judge over, the answer he got was no.


Next time maybe someone will look up the rule in question and see exactly what it says. If it needed interpretation then a judge could have done that. I have shown my opponent the rule we have questioned in numerous games. It takes a minute or two and keeps the game even.

AdeptusBrewCityJoe wrote:There is a problem with recording videos in their entirety in a tournament setting, ESPECIALLY only certain tables. If you're going to tape a table, you better be taping them all for cheating. Otherwise this isn't fair at all.


We are not talking about all the other tables, we are discussing the one here in question. Personally I have no problem with anyone taping me since I have nothing to hide. Many people in this hobby make video battle reports to share with friends as well as the watch to help them improve their play. I do applaud Tim for owning up to his mistakes. He didnt suggest that it wasnt fair since cheating may have occurred on the untaped tables but he sacked up and accepted responsibility for his actions.

I hope that this was an isolated incident and that the need to tape every table does not arise in the future. After all its just a game where "adults" play with toy soldiers, let's not lose perspective! This is a hobby meant to be fun and enjoyable, the fate of the world does not rest of who is going to the Vegas Invitational and who stays home.
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Postby getupandgo » Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:44 pm

MajorSoB wrote:
AdeptusBrewCityJoe wrote:There is a problem with recording videos in their entirety in a tournament setting, ESPECIALLY only certain tables. If you're going to tape a table, you better be taping them all for cheating. Otherwise this isn't fair at all.


We are not talking about all the other tables, we are discussing the one here in question. Personally I have no problem with anyone taping me since I have nothing to hide. Many people in this hobby make video battle reports to share with friends as well as the watch to help them improve their play. I do applaud Tim for owning up to his mistakes. He didnt suggest that it wasnt fair since cheating may have occurred on the untaped tables but he sacked up and accepted responsibility for his actions.

I hope that this was an isolated incident and that the need to tape every table does not arise in the future. After all its just a game where "adults" play with toy soldiers, let's not lose perspective! This is a hobby meant to be fun and enjoyable, the fate of the world does not rest of who is going to the Vegas Invitational and who stays home.


This is where the contradiction lies: if we're "adults playing with toy soldiers" then why take the time to record a game and post (parts) of it on the internet... Isn't that taking it a bit far?

People seem to be wound awfully tight about this, but having no connection to any of the parties involved; I can't help but wonder what the motivation was to post isolated chunks of this game, while not taping or posting others.

The offending player made his statement, gave up his Vegas tournament slot, and seems to have handled this amicably. Let it die already.

I'd like to again offer my thanks to the folks running adepticon, because this is just a bunch of headaches... and they are the ones ultimately taking the flak and dealing with it.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:13 am

MajorSoB wrote:Next time maybe someone will look up the rule in question and see exactly what it says. If it needed interpretation then a judge could have done that. I have shown my opponent the rule we have questioned in numerous games. It takes a minute or two and keeps the game even.


This is the correct solution. Personally, I believe that Tim was correct in this situation.

MajorSoB wrote:We are not talking about all the other tables, we are discussing the one here in question. Personally I have no problem with anyone taping me since I have nothing to hide. Many people in this hobby make video battle reports to share with friends as well as the watch to help them improve their play. I do applaud Tim for owning up to his mistakes. He didnt suggest that it wasnt fair since cheating may have occurred on the untaped tables but he sacked up and accepted responsibility for his actions.

I hope that this was an isolated incident and that the need to tape every table does not arise in the future. After all its just a game where "adults" play with toy soldiers, let's not lose perspective! This is a hobby meant to be fun and enjoyable, the fate of the world does not rest of who is going to the Vegas Invitational and who stays home.


No taping should have happened, not to say that it was ok that Tim's list wasn't correct, but as pointed out by Fred, and this is something I agree with completely, if you tape the top game for cheating, even a 3rd party, you had better tape them all for cheating, how many other games had cheating that went unnoticed because it wasn't taped, or lists that weren't 100% correct in the Championships, it is not ok that Tim was taped (he was very uncomfortable with the taping, I have spoken to him) and then his play scrutinized.

Either tape everyone or no-one, and personally I prefer that NO taping occur. Not that I cheat, or have anything to hide, I just would not prefer someone watch and scrutinize my play.
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Postby Bikeninja » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:54 pm

Is this something that is going to a potential policy for next year. Banning video taping. You will not be able to regulate it unless you ban it completely in my opinion. I hope this doesn't happen but would understand if it did. Their was a guy taping my friends game in the team tourney. Nice guy with some great commentary. Would have allowed him to tape any time.

I do not agree with how this individual handled his evidence at all. I deal with media all the time and I can say that this was poor form. I also agree with the thought process that if you tape one you should tape all. Not very realistic but I agree in principal.

I'm glad this guy owned up but in the end it seems he did cheat. Expirienced players know better. You don't get to the finals of this event and not know your way around the table. That is just me.

Your policy of no action unless reported at the time of occurence is a good policy and should have been used in this situation by either team. They did not so the fault lies with both. However, judges roaming the floor I think could have helped. What if one had been near when this occurred. You could make the policy of no interference unless asked during the course of a game that way your judges aren't placing themselves in the middle of something. One judge near the action and this is non-story.

Just my two cents and some things to consider. If Tasty wants to return next year.....make him buy a press pass and wear some creditentials when he is on the floor. See how much video he gets then.
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Postby muwhe » Mon Apr 12, 2010 10:33 am

Going to lock this thread down as we seem to be going over the same old ground here.
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