The Gladiator Tournament in the Future

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Postby Marius Xerxes » Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:47 pm

Spacecurves wrote: It takes five minutes to glue two pencils together and paint them bolt gun metal. There is no excuse for knowingly bringing non wisywig models to the premier 40k event in the world.


My feelings exactly.
Standing in the light, I see only darkness.

"The ambition of Caesar and of Napoleon pales before that which could not rest until it had seized the minds of men and controlled even their unborn thoughts." - The King in Yellow.
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Postby Cptn_Snuggles » Tue Apr 14, 2009 11:06 pm

I guess I'm just having a hard time with the flyers blocking movement yet not being able to be assaulted. Bring the big nasty stuff - that's fine.

Part of me is starting to agree with Greg Sparks on this - would be interesting if you had to win the missions and not just wipe out your opponent. Would make for more interesting armies. Wouldn't keep you from bringing your cool resin stuff (part of the reason why a lot of people really enjoy the gladiator) but might make you think twice about only taking a minimum troops allocation.

As for the whole WYSIWYG debate. No fault of the staff. It's up to the opponents to police it. Part of the reason why I don't bring a warhound is it's weapons that the base models come with.

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Postby thehod » Wed Apr 15, 2009 12:47 am

Most people who came across the Reaver wouldnt know what the weapons are as most of them looked like the Armorcast models.

The flyer issue is just an exploit.
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Postby sabote » Wed Apr 15, 2009 9:21 am

thehod wrote:Most people who came across the Reaver wouldnt know what the weapons are as most of them looked like the Armorcast models.

The flyer issue is just an exploit.


Agreed. That was pretty annoying. I also find it amazing that many of the Reaver players were able to throw down the cash for their models yet did not have the supporting book. Just a photo copy. Run out of money. I hauled all my Apoc and Imperial army books 10hrs across country.
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Postby thehod » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:19 am

PDFs are easy to edit with photoshop though I do believe we are all gentlemen when it comes to this competiton. I prefer the hardcover. There is a reason why my bookbag is 20 pounds.
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Postby seahawk » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:22 am

yet did not have the supporting book. Just a photo copy


To be fair to that, the Reaver rules are online for free at FW. If they are different from the book then shame on the player, but if they are the same then there's no problem, eh?
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Postby sabote » Thu Apr 16, 2009 9:54 am

seahawk wrote:
yet did not have the supporting book. Just a photo copy


To be fair to that, the Reaver rules are online for free at FW. If they are different from the book then shame on the player, but if they are the same then there's no problem, eh?


However that was not the rules of the tournament. Its always nice to have the whole book becuase it surprising how many people only will photocopy or point to the rule that proves their point. Yet when you read the next page that is not printed or being to shown to you, their point is disproven by a followup. I would like to say this does not happen much but it happens fairly often. Therefore you need the books. If you are going to spend a bunch of $$$ to get the figure than spend a few more to bring the book.
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Postby bushidoredpanda » Thu Apr 16, 2009 1:19 pm

sabote wrote:
thehod wrote:Most people who came across the Reaver wouldnt know what the weapons are as most of them looked like the Armorcast models.

The flyer issue is just an exploit.


Agreed. That was pretty annoying. I also find it amazing that many of the Reaver players were able to throw down the cash for their models yet did not have the supporting book. Just a photo copy. Run out of money. I hauled all my Apoc and Imperial army books 10hrs across country.


Each of the Fly Lords who had the Reavers had the book available and provided photo copys of the Reaver page to each opponent. I know, I had to carry those damn books around.

Also, to all the people complaining about the fact we found a loophole in the rules and exploited it... I remind you that this is the Gladiator tournament, and thats what it's all about.
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Postby biztheclown » Thu Apr 16, 2009 2:20 pm

The photocopy thing is a red herring. Who cares?

but...

bushidoredpanda wrote:Also, to all the people complaining about the fact we found a loophole in the rules and exploited it... I remind you that this is the Gladiator tournament, and thats what it's all about.



Ugh. This is very lame, both in the effect it had on the tournament and in the attitude it displays. Why, why, why, was this not ruled the other way? Each of these players should have been given a stern look and a withering "of course people can assault under the flyers."
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Postby Redbeard » Thu Apr 16, 2009 3:35 pm

biztheclown wrote:Ugh. This is very lame, both in the effect it had on the tournament and in the attitude it displays. Why, why, why, was this not ruled the other way?


It wasn't caught beforehand and put into the FAQ. Perhaps it should have been, but it slipped through.

I disagree that an on-site ruling should have voided it though. The rules, as published online, months in advance, have to be the rules of the event, even if they contain a previously unforseen loophole. People spend a lot of time and cash to get to adepticon with their armies. It is unfair to punish any of the participants for the failure of the rules-team to forsee a loophole. If the loophole isn't caught before the event, I think it's unreasonable to change the rules on the day of the games.

And that's said as a player who had an assault army and played against the flyers and ran into this issue.

Next year - close the stupid loophole. But I'm not at all upset or bitter that a team used it this year - finding the best way to use the models and rules is what the gladiator is about.
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Postby WC_Al » Thu Apr 16, 2009 4:27 pm

All in all - the Gladiator is a fun - over the top - play against stuff you won't normally play against tournament. I enjoyed it a lot.

I also played with no superheavies - only a stock Nurgle army (with 1 Lash sorcerer).

Round 1 - against a Warhound - and I dropped it - fun game great opponent. Got lucky in the win.

Round 2 - Against Angarath and Fateweaver - a fun tactical game - was basically able to outmaneuver and get a win.

Round 3 - against the Reaver who took second - I felt like I had a knife at a gunfight. Only option was to deepstrike oblits in with the vortex - which failed miserably. Got tabled - still had fun. Congrats on the win and taking second overall.

Round 4 - against guard and a marauder. Had a BLAST - one of my favorite games of the whole tourney. I couldn't kill the guard fast enough - and the flyer wiffed. Fun game, great opponent and a overall draw.

My only thought after facing 4 different versions of super heavy hell - is that the Reaver is in a class by itself. Angaroth being close second to him. The 3 shots with 3 weapons S-D 5" template is hell. Armor 14 - 3 (I think) Void Shields, 6 structure points - it's going to take a lot of luck - or another Reaver to drop this thing.

My only suggestion might be to limit the points cost of any one model to maybe 800 points. That lets in big nasty stuff - but not the things that will just dominate.

Fix the flyer rule to. My opponent in round 4 didn't play his that way as it made absolutely no sense - he was right there.

Thanks to Sparks and Kim for running this thing - it was fun!
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Postby bushidoredpanda » Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:52 am

WC_Al wrote:All in all - the Gladiator is a fun - over the top - play against stuff you won't normally play against tournament. I enjoyed it a lot.

I also played with no superheavies - only a stock Nurgle army (with 1 Lash sorcerer).

Round 1 - against a Warhound - and I dropped it - fun game great opponent. Got lucky in the win.

Round 2 - Against Angarath and Fateweaver - a fun tactical game - was basically able to outmaneuver and get a win.

Round 3 - against the Reaver who took second - I felt like I had a knife at a gunfight. Only option was to deepstrike oblits in with the vortex - which failed miserably. Got tabled - still had fun. Congrats on the win and taking second overall.

Round 4 - against guard and a marauder. Had a BLAST - one of my favorite games of the whole tourney. I couldn't kill the guard fast enough - and the flyer wiffed. Fun game, great opponent and a overall draw.

My only thought after facing 4 different versions of super heavy hell - is that the Reaver is in a class by itself. Angaroth being close second to him. The 3 shots with 3 weapons S-D 5" template is hell. Armor 14 - 3 (I think) Void Shields, 6 structure points - it's going to take a lot of luck - or another Reaver to drop this thing.

My only suggestion might be to limit the points cost of any one model to maybe 800 points. That lets in big nasty stuff - but not the things that will just dominate.

Fix the flyer rule to. My opponent in round 4 didn't play his that way as it made absolutely no sense - he was right there.

Thanks to Sparks and Kim for running this thing - it was fun!


Hmm, an 800 point limit is not a bad idea. that would clear out the Reaver, Ang'grath, and the heirophant. Those three are the most broken of the available superheavies/gargantuans from the studies the Fly Lords have done.
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Postby crashwell » Thu Apr 23, 2009 1:29 am

bushidoredpanda wrote:
WC_Al wrote:All in all - the Gladiator is a fun - over the top - play against stuff you won't normally play against tournament. I enjoyed it a lot.

I also played with no superheavies - only a stock Nurgle army (with 1 Lash sorcerer).

Round 1 - against a Warhound - and I dropped it - fun game great opponent. Got lucky in the win.

Round 2 - Against Angarath and Fateweaver - a fun tactical game - was basically able to outmaneuver and get a win.

Round 3 - against the Reaver who took second - I felt like I had a knife at a gunfight. Only option was to deepstrike oblits in with the vortex - which failed miserably. Got tabled - still had fun. Congrats on the win and taking second overall.

Round 4 - against guard and a marauder. Had a BLAST - one of my favorite games of the whole tourney. I couldn't kill the guard fast enough - and the flyer wiffed. Fun game, great opponent and a overall draw.

My only thought after facing 4 different versions of super heavy hell - is that the Reaver is in a class by itself. Angaroth being close second to him. The 3 shots with 3 weapons S-D 5" template is hell. Armor 14 - 3 (I think) Void Shields, 6 structure points - it's going to take a lot of luck - or another Reaver to drop this thing.

My only suggestion might be to limit the points cost of any one model to maybe 800 points. That lets in big nasty stuff - but not the things that will just dominate.

Fix the flyer rule to. My opponent in round 4 didn't play his that way as it made absolutely no sense - he was right there.

Thanks to Sparks and Kim for running this thing - it was fun!


Hmm, an 800 point limit is not a bad idea. that would clear out the Reaver, Ang'grath, and the heirophant. Those three are the most broken of the available superheavies/gargantuans from the studies the Fly Lords have done.

Wont that just change the balance of power?

With those three out of the Gladiator, doesn't that just make other things - previously thought to be innocuous - the kings of the hill.

In short, does the point limit solve anything? Or, is it just another case of "Here comes the new king, same as the last king ... but cheaper"

I don't know enough about the Imperial Armor units to be confident that the point cap would "solve" the issue.
Be well,

Dave
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Postby Redbeard » Thu Apr 23, 2009 6:02 am

Yeah, lemme see, 800 point limit - and there's a 777 point greater daemons?

Does that really help?
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Postby Cptn_Snuggles » Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:18 pm

also - it'll be interesting to see what Foregeworld might come up with between now and next adepticon.

I think half of the fun is being able to bring super huge things, but I could also argue some of the super big things are game changers in small points games.

But that's the rub - you bring a one sided army, and some armies in return will be able to beat you down. As long as scenarios don't reward the super huge beasts (maybe by no longer counting full points for tabling an opponent) and rule loopholes don't happen next year (not being able to assault a flier, yet it blocks movement/assault), we should be fine.

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