soft score breakdown

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soft score breakdown

Postby ifearnobeer75 » Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:59 pm

I was a first time attendee this year. The event was great fun, but I have some questions/issues.

First of all, is there any way to find out what the breakdown on soft scores was? I am just curious because I brought an ogre armythat did fairly well in BP but I had a low soft score. I felt I had three great games and even the one where my opponent didn't know the rules for his own army, I stopped arguing just to keep the game moving. My painting isn't the greatest, but not bad, and my army was themed. The only thinkg I can think of is that I got raped on comp and/or sportsmanship.

Which leads me to the second point. if my army got raped on comp, I was either grading too generously, lowest I handed out was a 15, or comp should only be handled by judges.

for reference I had:
Skragg
butcher
butcher

4 bulls w/ xhw
4 bulls w/ xhw
4 IG
4 IG
3 LB
4 gorgers
2 bull rhinox riders

I would hardly call that a "cheesy" list (unless I'm way off base)

Jay
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Postby Jormi_Boced » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:10 pm

I didn't think it was possible to take an army of ogres that could get bad comp.

I also am not sure on the comp scoring. I think I gave all my opponents fair scores. I think 15 was about the lowest I gave as well, and in general I was more like 20.
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Postby kylek2235 » Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:20 pm

From what I've seen, painting scores were really stingy, which is part of your soft scores. I loved seeing all of those really awesome fully converted armies that looked like they could walk across the tables by themselves, but it looks like they ruined the curve for the average guy's paint score.

That being said, Ogres should never get a bad comp score :D Personally, I wouldn't be averse to giving Ogre players extra points for using the army! I'm slightly biased though, it's my army as well.
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Postby Jormi_Boced » Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:44 pm

I gave 4s for painting pretty much to everyone. I gave out 3 fives I think.
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Re: soft score breakdown

Postby old coast » Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:27 am

ifearnobeer75 wrote:4 gorgers
2 bull rhinox riders

I would hardly call that a "cheesy" list (unless I'm way off base)

Jay


Your off base, that's what killed you right there any time you max out duplicate/ quadruplicate rares like that you're going to get wacked on judge comp...how the heck do you take 4 gorgers anyway?? (I don't know ogres, but played them occasionaly and have never seen 4 Gorgers) are they 2 for 1 in the rare slot? plus Rhinox Riders are pretty much universally reviled in combination with gut magic

I played an Ogre guy in round 4, he had Scrag, 3 butchers and two scrap launchers it was very hard game ( we drew) and I still gave him average comp...The judges probably wacked you pretty good...but that's only one score...it really boiled down to how you oppoents felt as they drop the highest and lowest and averaged the middle..

As for the painting, it was some of best I've ever in one tournament....
the bar was so high, people with average paint probably took a little hit..
too.
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Postby ifearnobeer75 » Sat Apr 11, 2009 11:40 am

well Skragg allows gorger 2 for 1 as specials and I have to take 2. My rhinox riders wound up hitting one unit total in all four games. Not to mention, i never even attempted to cast any gut magic on the rhinox riders, mostly because I wasn't sure if I was allowed to or not.I guess Thorek, Khorne units with Tzeentch characters, and war alter/steam tanks are better than my list?

If my list is "much reviled" then maybe there needs to be some sort of breakdown on what the judges are going to hit you on, because virtually everywhere, except adepticon, my list is hardly considered power-gaming.
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Postby old coast » Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:25 pm

I won't say your list is worse that any of what you name or tons of other stuff I saw there..I'm just saying that's how they look it at...Rhinox Riders
get looked at like they're broke..are they broke in context of some of the new stuff out there?..debatable ..that's just the perception...either way the other lists you mention got tanked hard for comp, you took a hit for using a special character to boost your rare count and then the Rhinox..how much of a hit I have no idea...they don't release soft score breakdown but if you email the organizers they will likely tell you...
Everyone agrees that Ogres are barely competitive...but when judging comp you still look at how the player manipulates the army organization chart with his list.. out of curiosity let me ask you did you bid battle points?
sorry you are not happy...if you want good comp you need to bring a balanced list to point that some will say its soft, have solid to great paint and be a good sport that's how you do it..if you don't like that, say screw comp and go for best general. that's why its there..good luck in the future either way.

FYI when say reviled I mean only in context of the Rhinox in combo with gut magic..some tourneys stipulate you can't bring them at all because of that..some say yes but you can't use the magic on them
just pointing that out as reflection of your possible low comp score.
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Postby Lordgoober » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:00 pm

IIRC it was stated you couldn't use Gut Magic on the RRs.
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Postby ifearnobeer75 » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:20 pm

unfortunately, this tournament gave no stipulation about using gut magic on the rhinox riders. also, if they are going to hit you hard for having special characters, or taking multiple specials, then they need to say that before hand. yes, I filled my special choices, but I only had 1 rare used and I had 4 big (big for ogres) core units. if I was really trying to make it "tough", I would have used MSU bulls (1 unit) and taken more IG.

I got 64 battle points, but bidding wouldn't have gotten me anything better, in fact I would have just broke even, since I tied once and lost once. then I would have wound up worse in overall.

If other opponents can't look at an army and say: well they're ogres, not too much you can do to make them competitive. Then perhaps opponents shouldn't be grading comp. If my army got hit for comp then next year (if I go), I sure hope that I don't see the same stuff I saw this year (FYI those three armies I listed are armies I faced) and not one of them got lower than a 15 from me.

I guess I was just too damn nice. I harbor no illusion that I was going to win the tourney, I brought ogres after all, but when I was on table 20 something going into my last game, I fully expected to have a better score than I did, especially based on how I had graded comp.

two of the armies I faced I would never even build (no theme just using best units, marks whatever.) the dwarf army was good except for thorek. as a matter of fact, only one army I faced all tourney would I consider "less" hardcore than mine, and we played to a draw.

which I guess falls back to the point that only tourney officials should grade comp (with a posted sytem) none of this: we tell you it's legal to use but you better not or you'll get hammered.
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Postby old coast » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:35 pm

well remember, the judges were just one score of 5..so even if the judges gave you a "0" (they didn't that Im sure ) you still have 4 scores ..meaning your opponents dinged you, then we have your painting and sports...one of the problems with comp this year is people were too nice..personally I gave out two really low scores..one being a "2"

Composition and Theme: 25 Points Total. Comp is being scored on a scale of 1 to 25, with 1 Being Ardboys class, to 25 being a Fluffbunny. Each Opponent will give you a score, as will 2 judges and Yourself. The High and Low scores will be dropped and we will average the result.


For those of us that play in these things regularly this is very clear, if you dont -I understand the subjectivity.

If you want to try to improve your soft score in the future feel free to PM me, I had the highest soft score in Escalation and one of the three "79"s on saturday..so I "kinda" know how to do it right, its still subjective
but I certainly get the idea...
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Postby ifearnobeer75 » Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:58 pm

I see the issue here as being, no one knows wha the scale is. I mean, what does having Thorek in a list garner a 5 and it goes down from there or does he automatically drop the score to a 10 or what?

I think the 0-25 range is too wide to make distinction. especialy if a lot of people are giving too high scores (like me obviously) Hell, I gave my first opponent (khorne units, tzeentch char., didn't know his rules) a 15 comp and a decent sportsman, I even stopped arguing rules to keep it moving. should I have just hit him with bad sportsmanship for not knowing his rules or what?

I guess you see my conundrum, I ran my list by numerous sources who said it wasn't that hard at all, it is rather difficult to make a hard OK list after all, and I got quite a few comments on my theme and conversions.

It comes down to: I have no idea what army to work on for next year because I have no idea if it will get raped on comp or not. After having this list killed on comp I can't even begin to imagine a WE list that wouldn't get slammed, or a Kholek/Throgg list with no magic defense, or Slaanesh WOC with a DP.
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Postby old coast » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:03 pm

People do know...do you know what an Ard' Boyz list is? if you were running Ogres in Ard boyz...your list is pretty close to what you'd have to run.. ie. the hardest thing possible..again this is Ogre's and Ogres and Ard' Boyz are oxymorons but you need to look at the list breakdown (% percent of characters to core to special and rares) as well the Army...
like I said I'd be glad to help..PM me and lets start with your actual soft score and figure out how bad the comp wack was vs the other two.
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Postby pcgamer72 » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:18 pm

There is zero reason for you to receive poor comp scores, if that indeed is the case, with that Ogre army. My friend ran 6 Gorgers, I believe, and I know that his comp isn't bad. Ogres get quite a bit of leeway in my book. For instance, I wouldn't give my friend's list anything worse than an 18 I'm sure, and it could be higher.

I run a Wood Elf army that typically gets pretty good comp scores, especially since the more recent books have been released. For instance, I scored a 69 in the Championships on Saturday, and I assure you that it isn't coming too much from painting.

If you got tanked, then it looks like you played against at least some people who just like to get revenge via the checklist. I gave out mostly high scores over the weekend, although I did give a four to one player, simply because it was absolutely horrendous (I gave him a 4 on sports and a great paint score though).

I firmly believe the 0-25 range was FAR too large. How am I supposed to justify an 18 over a 17? I thought that from the first game of the Escalation Tournament. 0-10, I believe, should be the largest range used.
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Postby ifearnobeer75 » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:24 pm

If you got tanked, then it looks like you played against at least some people who just like to get revenge via the checklist.


This indeed was my thought too, and of course the game where I corrected him on a bunch of rules (he won). I just didn't want to sound like I was whining.

I think people look at those rhinox and say OMG they're huge and immediately call them cheese when in fact, they only have LD 7, or they get down on Skragg, but he is a 400 point char. with no armor or ward save.

[/quote]
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Postby old coast » Sat Apr 11, 2009 2:53 pm

pcgamer72 wrote:There is zero reason for you to receive poor comp scores, if that indeed is the case, with that Ogre army. My friend ran 6 Gorgers, I believe, and I know that his comp isn't bad. Ogres get quite a bit of leeway in my book. For instance, I wouldn't give my friend's list anything worse than an 18 I'm sure, and it could be higher.


Ok this laughable..first of all your supposed to only have 2 rares..ok Scrag gives you 2 Gorgers for 1...so theoretically you can take 2 and some Maneaters or a Giant..you want to bring 4..ok your going to get dinged a bit they are unbreakable and essentially deep strike..Your friend is lucky he didnt play me I would give 6 gorgers a "ZERO" comp everytime I dont care what else is in the army...you are abusing your rare privilege, I'd would have given fearnobeer...probably a 15 on comp
and that would be 10 points for playing Ogres not about the list.

I run a Wood Elf army that typically gets pretty good comp scores, especially since the more recent books have been released. For instance, I scored a 69 in the Championships on Saturday, and I assure you that it isn't coming too much from painting.


Shocking considering your attitude above what did you bring?


I firmly believe the 0-25 range was FAR too large. How am I supposed to justify an 18 over a 17? I thought that from the first game of the Escalation Tournament. 0-10, I believe, should be the largest range used.


You don't 17 or 18 pick a number your averaging the three middle scores anyway...the general number should be relative to the overall list vs who else you played. average being 12.5. Comp scoring at the Championship ts used to be only 10 points (I think) the made it more because 10 points wast enough to discourage people from bring horrid lists to the table.

They are already talking about changing it for next year..it will be similar I am sure but will be more detailed in explanation and probably give people who play the old non competitive books (Ogres, Beasts) a break.
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