The Gladiator Tournament in the Future

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The Gladiator Tournament in the Future

Postby Centurian99 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:10 am

I had a great deal of fun this year running the Gladiator, and I had great staff to help me do so. But it's also definitely time to start collecting the lessons learned, and to begin formulating thoughts for 2010.

#1 on the list (for me at least), is refining the Gladiator Tournament. This year, the Reaver Titan dominated...no two ways around it. Both the Champion and the 2nd in Command award went to players fielding Reavers. It's simply a beast.

One of the things I always liked about the Gladiator (besides the competitiveness) was the random wacky stuff that you could expect to see, that you don't see everywhere. It's great to see rare FW models painted up and used on the table-top, or rare armies that don't get played much.

What I DON'T want to see would be the Gladiator devolving into the "Reaver" tournament.

I did some thinking, about why the Reaver was so ridiculously dominant this year (compared to previous years, when titans, gargantuans, and other stuff was present but not dominant), and came to a few theories, but I wanted to hear what other people thought.
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suggestions

Postby Spacecurves » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:53 am

I am really glad you to hear you say you realize the Reaver is a problem. What was the rational behind allowing it? Those who are in the running to win the gladiator can tell what it will do just by a thirty second read of the rules, so most everyone brought one. The worst part however is that reavers make the game mindless. You can look at the lists, look at the scenario, and know without a doubt who will win 99% of the time.

That being said, I came in third with straight codex marines :), (superheavies are for cowards!) and first round I defeated the flylord list (they all had the same army, almost point for point) that ended up winning, so it IS possible, you just gotta play your *****s off. Sadly I didn't get a shot at Jwolf round 4 and no one else stopped him :P.

The reasons it is too good is simple, strength D weapons, 8 templates worth! Strength D is not appropriate for "normal" 40k games. It was designed by GW to make titan weapons cool and measurably different from your usual demolisher cannon leman russ. They make sense and are fun in a friendly apocalypse game with 30,000 pts on a side, but they do not make sense in a competitive environment. I think you have a few options to rebalance the gladiator for next year:

Don't allow reavers, other units with strength D are awesome, but not as broken as the reaver.

Take out all units that have strength D weapons.

Allow all units, but don't allow them to select any strength D weapons.

Redefine what a strength D weapon does for the tournament. Perhaps count as strength 10 AP 2 ordinance wpns, no +1 on result table, no ignore cover. (could also make em ap 1 and thus keep the +1 on result table) Nine of those is still all kinds of nasty, but it won't wipe out armies in one turn. This would also make other titan weapons worth buying, so you'd actually see some variety in weapon load outs. I would vote for the ap 2 option, make them take a melta cannon if they want to kill tanks.

My personnel suggestion would be to both disallow reavers AND redefine the D weapons. There are countless wacky forgeworld things to chose from. Right now "forgeworld allowed" really transates to "Angron and Strength D allowed". I want to see lightnings and trygons again next year, not just a sea of cobras and titans.

Another point, you need to change the fact that flier bases block movement. Using thunderbolts to stop people charging the Titans was just silly. Its the gladiator so more power to the flylords for thinking of it, but its not good for the event. Are my men really so scared of the plane's shadow they can't walk under it?

Also, I loved the scenarios this year, but I would suggest having a curveball of some type for assault armies next year. The vortex grenade was genius, keep it up.

And a million thanks to you and greg for running this event.

*PS* Oh, and whats the word on the fact that many reavers did not have their hull mounted weapons correctly represented? I pointed it out to my first round opponent, he said he didn't have to make it wisywig since there was not a official bit made for it. I knew this was incorrect, but I didn't want to start adepticon by raising hell about something like that.

Still, it looks bad when a non-wisywig model wins the gladiator. (correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this happened) Were there any repercussions for this, or is wisywig now a polite suggestion rather than an actual requirement?
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Re: suggestions

Postby Redbeard » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:39 am

Spacecurves wrote:Another point, you need to change the fact that flier bases block movement. Using thunderbolts to stop people charging the Titans was just silly. Its the gladiator so more power to the flylords for thinking of it, but its not good for the event. Are my men really so scared of the plane's shadow they can't walk under it?



This.

There shouldn't be something that can both block movement past it, and also be unable to be assaulted. If it can stop me moving, I should be able to hit it. If I cannot hit it, how can it stop me moving? This is simple logic.

There are a lot of things that can hurt a titan if they get to it. Not upset thatthis trick was found this year, but it needs to be changed going forward.
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Postby GregSwanson » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:42 am

I agree with Redbeard, the king of the Bloodthirsters is afriaid of a cargo shuttle's shadow? Also wysiwig should be strictly enforced. If they dont make the bit you had better build one. In evey other tourney if you want to field it you had better have the model. The Gladiator should be no different.
Last edited by GregSwanson on Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Gladiator's 1st rule

Postby Elpana01 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:55 am

Before we go any further with our comments. Let's remember the first rule of Gladiator.
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Postby muwhe » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:55 am

Before we go any further with our comments. Let's remember the first rule of Gladiator.


Ding Ding Ding ..

I'll say this ... I think I had a list that would have beat a Reaver.

Also .. several of those "Unbeatable" Reaver lists lost.

Are there some areas to tighten up .. definitely. The flyer blocking issue is the primary one.

But .. the concept behind the Gladiator is sound. In speaking with Jon .. several times it came down to a night fight roll .. or another single roll. Which means scenario design .. also needs to address these sort of things.

Add the fact .. what we just saw .. from Forgeworld Open Day .. and the fact that Air Guard will be ... an almost every man sort of army ..

The future is bright.
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Postby sapper79 » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:28 am

I have to say first off I did bring a Reaver and I did place second in the gladiator so my opinion my not be as well liked here as you would want. But I do agree that maybe some things may need changed. But at the same time if you take out the Reaver then you need to disallow the big deamons like Angroth and the biotitans, as well as the eldar superheavies. This is due to the fact that if you remove the biggest point cost and hargest hitting imperial unit from thier army and best bet to deal with said enemy units you have just skewed the battlefield in favor of said enemy lists.

Now this being said, we have to look at the facts. Does the Reaver make it a garunteed winner every match. NO. I got low end points on my first 2 games. And only maxed points my last 2, with my last game comming down the simply a couple lucky dice rolls and us going all 7 turns or else I would have not gotten all points involved. The idea around Gladiator is bring the biggest meanest hardest hitting list you can and play it against other peoples list of the same. That being said can everyone who has complained about the Reaver say they brought a big mean nasty army designed to be uber-killy. Or did they bring balanced lists to face all commers in a standard tourny and then just add a superheavy or more units to thier list since it was 2250pts.

Yes strength D is hard to deal with and yes it owns alot of things. Heck I lost 1/3 of my army turn 1 against my final opponent when he went first and hit me with the 10'' Str D Pieplate from the Cobra. But everything can be beaten. Just gotta figure out how and strategize accordingly. I know for a fact that a few Reavers were blown up durring the tourny and or destroyed. That there shows you they aren't all powerful, just like everyones feared nob bikers ain't all powerful. So in closing just remember the number 1 gladitor rule and watch next year as the Reavers get owned cuz people strategized for a year on how to beat them and the playing field is changed yet again.
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Postby GregSwanson » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:31 am

I have no problem with bringing the reavers. Part of the problem I think this year was no one had ever seen them before and the second was the flyer loophole. With this closed next year I am sure you will see a few more exploding reavers.....
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Re: suggestions

Postby Cptn_Snuggles » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:39 am

Redbeard wrote:
Spacecurves wrote:Another point, you need to change the fact that flier bases block movement. Using thunderbolts to stop people charging the Titans was just silly. Its the gladiator so more power to the flylords for thinking of it, but its not good for the event. Are my men really so scared of the plane's shadow they can't walk under it?



This.

There shouldn't be something that can both block movement past it, and also be unable to be assaulted. If it can stop me moving, I should be able to hit it. If I cannot hit it, how can it stop me moving? This is simple logic.

There are a lot of things that can hurt a titan if they get to it. Not upset thatthis trick was found this year, but it needs to be changed going forward.


yep - I can't echo enough this comment here. No reason something that can't be assaulted should be able to block movement / assault with it's shadow.

As for reaver and D weapons - yeah they hurt - but I have no issues with that. As long as you can get to it by beating it up in close assault.

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Postby Spacecurves » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:41 am

sapper79 wrote:But at the same time if you take out the Reaver then you need to disallow the big deamons like Angroth and the biotitans, as well as the eldar superheavies. This is due to the fact that if you remove the biggest point cost and hargest hitting imperial unit from thier army and best bet to deal with said enemy units you have just skewed the battlefield in favor of said enemy lists.

But everything can be beaten. Just gotta figure out how and strategize accordingly. I know for a fact that a few Reavers were blown up durring the tourny and or destroyed. That there shows you they aren't all powerful, just like everyones feared nob bikers ain't all powerful. So in closing just remember the number 1 gladitor rule and watch next year as the Reavers get owned cuz people strategized for a year on how to beat them and the playing field is changed yet again.


Everything besides the reaver titan is balanced just fine. Angron can be killed by massed firepower and at worst he is only going to eat 5 units a game. One strength D template coming from a cobra or 2 coming from an eldar titan is fine, EIGHT coming from a Reaver IS broken, and clearly Bill realizes this.

You can of course still beat a titan, if it were literally invincible there would be no need for a discussion thread, but it is so good, that in 9/10 games an opponent has no chance.

In past years all the other superheavies and titan were legal and they did not dominate, only the reaver needs to be addressed.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:50 am

I think the Gladiator needs all FW taken out of it. The Apoc rules have made lousy FW models awesome for the points. In the past, when Hank and Bill played, the FW models weren't worth their points. That is why they didn't do well. Now the apoc rules have changed all that.

Not enforcing the WYSIWYG rule for the carapace weapon on a Reaver is inexcuseable. That is plain BS and would have done a lot to straighten things out.

It won't do to restrict one type of weapon or one type of unit from the apoc rules for the gladiator. The new models and rules will overtake any restrictions and another new brokeness will take over. The gladiator needs to be split into two tournaments run at the same time.

Run one 2000 or 2250pt classic gladiator at noon. One force org chart. No apoc or FW allowed. Period. Then run one apoc tournament at the same time. It can be 3000pts and use all the standard apoc rules. The giddy big toys can be in the tourney in which they were designed to be in. Apoc units, which the titans are now a aprt of, have no place in regular 40k. The apoc templates do not belong. Strategems, assets and formations are all in apoc to serve as a balance to the now overpowered units (Reaver, Angarath, and flyers, etc...). Running a gladiator with the half the apoc rules takes away the strongest tactical counters to those units.

Split the tourney's into 2. One classic gladiator and one apoc tourney. Run them at the same time on Friday. Trying to restrict certain units or abilities will not work when FW and apoc have an evolving rules and miniature line which can circumvent those restrictions.
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Postby shadedragon » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:08 am

I agree with Fred! And just the general consensus all around... Apoc rules are NOT made for 2000 points. Gladiator is supposed to be an anything goes, so FW was generally not a problem. But Apoc rules are meant for big games, not for 2000 or 2250 points. Especially with the new template rules, a 5 in template dishes out a ridiculous amount of damage.

I believe there were some Apoc events going on this year, why not split the Apoc rules and use them as they are meant to be used, in a big battle?

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Postby Brian » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:35 am

Or maybe turn the Gladiator into an escalation tournament with wacky rules...

Round 1: 1000 points straight 40k
Round 2: 1850 points forge world allowed but no gargantuan, no super heavy
Round 3: 2000 points forge world allowed but no gargantuan, no super heavy
Round 4: 2250 points gargantuan or super heavy OK

You must carry units forward from round to round so your initial 1000 points will be represented in the final 2250 points (to prevent people from hauling their entire collection of models to Adepticon for this)

Yeah, this format would be a beast and it would require way more thought to plan a winning list. I think it would be a blast to write missions for this format because it would be totally easy to program it so an objective in mission 1, 2, or 3 (or all!) can affect the arrival of your super heavies in round 4.
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Postby Blackmoor » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:42 am

One of the reasons why I think they did well was because there was no "screw the big ones" mission this year.

Normally they have one mission that hurt the super heavies, and it was lacking this year. I think it was last year that you could take one unit of your opponents army and put it into reserve, and it would come on in turn #4.

This mission would have hurt the reavers because you can kill all of their troops in the 3-4 turns that you have before it comes on, and it would only have around 3 turns to do its damage.

I think the vortex grenade mission was the one to hurt the big things, but with flyers blocking, the reavers durability, and its ability to kill anything getting close means that it hardly hurt them.
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Postby Ed » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:46 am

While I never thought of using Flyers to protect the Reaver, my group was planning on entering the Gladiator simply because we have a Reaver titan. Only our own procrastination at getting out TT armies ready saved you all from another cookie-cutter Reaver list. We looked at the stats, and pretty much concluded that nothing else can even come close to matching all that Strength D area of effect weapons.

However, if you don't allow the big stupid resin stuff, the Gladiator Lite just becomes a slightly larger regular tournament. If people want that, cool. But I think the draw of the Gladiator is to use all the models that folks regret having bought in the first place.

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