NEW DARK ELDAR

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NEW DARK ELDAR

Postby Norbu the Destroyer » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:50 am

Well no one has started this thread and I was extremely curious to hear the thoughts of the Chicago area players about this subject. The new Dark Eldar. Now Ive had about 10 games played agianst (not as) DE and I am a little underwhelmed. On "the site which must never be named" I was expecting to see quotes on the back cover that said things like



"Best codex ever written"
-Redbeard

"Wouldnt bother playing if this army lines up against me"
-Skirvus

"FAQ will say 'YOU WIN!!!' "
-Shadowy figure who represents the INAT

Now those of you who have had past experience with the army, I was curious on your thoughts. I only played them a few times in the 37 year old codex they had, so I am not really sure of the "shift" the codex has taken. All I know is what Ive faced, and it seems this codex will require A LOT of practice to "get the hang of."

I have seen lances do what lances do, but there are less of them. Mech spam sees this as a bunch of Missile Launchers, and less deadly than 15 Long Fangs people run into every tourney. I also have seen 3 boats a turn get wrecked on average, and with less boats.......
Wyches seem to have problems with power armour. Wait...the whole army seems to have problem with power armour. Now the lots and lots of poison will get a lot of saves against monsters, but 3+ with a prevelence of FNP in the last 2 codexi means little damage. As a whole power armour doesnt care about poison or S4.

"What about melee...thats where the wyches shine?" I am also not seeing it. WS4 ans S3 means a melee roll of 4+....5+ against MEQ armies and that alows a 3+ save. Wolves ( the most common army out there) will be squad size x 3 (with counter attack) for 4+ ...3+ and the wyches save on 4+. That (as I have seen recently) results in wyches getting stomped by MEQ squads.


Now I think the DE will hit their stride as people play them....I just see them as equal to the Tyranid book. To me this means ....lots of practice and experimenting will result in a list that can win....but it wont be the "easy button" that is shooting guard or wolves.

I dont want to take anything away from IG or Wolf players as a good player is a good player...but right off the bat people who started to use those two codexi could win/tie a lot of their games. The Tyranid and now DE players who were well versed in the "old codex" (dont know if this is a hinderence or not) are having trouble out of the gate. I guess I would rate the BA codex between the 2 groups out of the gate.

What I have seen that I like is hemoculi heavy wrack troop lists. Hemoculi get those nasty things FNP...furious charge (if attached) and the ability to take an additional liquifier gun turn 1. Webway portle has potential, and a hidden gem that may make it work is Beast pack spam to compliment the webway portal in the middle of the board. Reavers turbo boosting for wounds is nice, but I think reserving them or turbo boosting for several turns to cause havoc late is a good use. Ravangers are still good...but the Void Raven Bomber can really cause havoc on the enemy with S9 lance weapons and armour 11...not to mention multiple missle upgrades.

I havent figured out yet if all the 10-20 point upgrades the Hemoculi/Archons can take are fools gold or the savior of the army. It seems all those powers CAN be game breaking...but there is always a catch like "insta kills but S3" or the "figure will suffer insta death if it fails a wounds charachteristic test but the same model gets to take an invul. save or a cover save." Not sure if an army full of these whacky powers will save the army, or give the commander a false sense of security while the army is blasted off the table.


I really want this army to work and "mix up" the meta game as I dont want another major tourney line up I have to face be ....Wolf....IG......BA......BA.....Wolf....Wolf. I want the DE to succeed as the minis I have seen look really sharp. I also want to encourage what is essentially a new race in 40k, and I dont want to see players shy away from it beacause it isnt powerful out of the gate.


Wasnt there some Tony guy who won a lot of the AWC tourneys last year with this army? Isnt his name like Grandpasaurus-Rex or something like that?

Curios on thought you folks might have and especially those of you who intend on using this army. Now if you have a killer trick you want to spring during a tourney ...by all means keep it quiet....but I want to hear others thoughts on this codex after seeing it in action.
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Postby Skrivus » Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:16 pm

I've been playing with the new army for 4 games and have been really liking it. Overall, the army is much better than it used to be against most opponents. Right now, I have been just experimenting with different units and different builds.

There is a major difference between the way the Dark Eldar codex is set up as opposed to the update tyranids. The tyranid book really corralled players into only being able to take certain units to be able to deal with anti-mech (Elites choice is usually only between hive guard and zoanthropes.)

That's not really so much with the Dark Eldar book, as you can choose what you want to be anti-tank and what you want to be anti-infantry. You can have infantry serve as anti-tank units, while you have vehicles do damage with anti-infantry guns (splinter cannons and disintegrators). You can also do the opposite, bringing lances on your vehicles and anti-infantry guns with the rest of the army.

There being less lances than there used to be is somewhat of a myth. While you have to change what units you run, the number of dark lances someone runs stays almost the same. At 2000 points, you can still get 31 dark lances if you want. If you only take 28 lances, you can bring Vect and be able to seize the initiative on a 4+. While I don't find that build to be fun to play (I have mech IG; if I wanna just shoot, I'll use them), I bet that will be popular come Adepticon.

I see this codex as not something that will trump IG or Space Wolves, but I think the codex is better than the Blood Angels book, but you'll see a bandwagon hop on it and then drop off, because people will try to play it like the other armies.

You really need to use the mobility of the whole army to focus fire and assaults to your advantage. If you just try to send in a squad on an even fight against space wolves, you'll probably lose. I really think this codex is a well written book that is very fun to play.
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Postby YeezyMozart » Sun Nov 14, 2010 11:24 pm

The new codex is much better as a well rounded army


The reason Dark Eldar was so good the first year at AWC was because the new Guard codex wasn't big yet. As soon as the mech guard army sprang all over the Dark Eldar from the old days was dead.

The reason why the old codex was great for Tony was because at the time you could take 21 dark lances and 9 disintegrator blast rounds in a 1850. The weakness was the light armor which an all mech guard exploits very well. Plus a Archon and three units of witches with a succubus and agonizer in each.

The new codex can not take as many dark lances I don't know what Shrivus has in his army list but at 1850 I have about 16 lances and no disintegrators. Raiders got a bit more pricey and you now need 10 guys to get a lance that costs 25 points so in my opinion the old spam dark lance trick is gone.

Not that there are not really cool things you can do with the codex. I think the new army is a middle tier army and gonna be a little bit tricky to play compared to top tier armies.

The biggest flaw with the knew book is they have no sure thing to deal with nob bikers. You can't rely on shooting them down unless you have something that takes away cover saves and wounds reliably. They have a few weapons that cause characteristic tests but nothing that deals with Initiative like jaws. With out being able to truly keep the nob bikers away like storm sheild termies, or mephiston, or thunderwolf rune priets with thunderhammer, or Abbadon, or nightbringer, or blood thirster, or swormlord......Dark Eldar's best bet is a Archon with a soul trap that already killed a independent character and had rolled a 3 for combat drugs that game. GOOD LUCK!!
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Postby Skrivus » Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:08 am

I don't think I would run this list, but here's an 1850 list I've thrown together to squeeze as many dark lance shots as possible. Honestly it's not much of a refined list, but more of just to prove you can squeeze in quite alot of dark lances still.

{HQ}

[50] Haemonculi

{Elite}

[146] Kalalite Trueborn - 3x models, 2x dark lances, raider

[146] Kalalite Trueborn - 3x models, 2x dark lances, raider

[146] Kalalite Trueborn - 3x models, 2x dark lances, raider

{Troops}

[175] Kabalite Warriors - 10x, 1x dark lance, raider

[175] Kabalite Warriors - 10x, 1x dark lance, raider

[115] Kabalite Warriors - 10x, 1x dark lance

[115] Kabalite Warriors - 10x, 1x dark lance

{Fast Attack}

[140] Sourges - 5x models, 2x dark lances

[140] Sourges - 5x models, 2x dark lances

[140] Sourges - 5x models, 2x dark lances

{Heavy Support}

[115] Ravager - 3x dark lances, flickerfield

[115] Ravager - 3x dark lances, flickerfield

[115] Ravager - 3x dark lances, flickerfield

Total : 1833

30 Dark Lances

Ways to deal with nob bikers, why wouldn't dark lances be effective? They do have the cover save, but after that you're removing models and even if a warboss takes the wound, there's no FNP as its AP2
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Postby shadedragon » Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:29 pm

There are ALWAYS ways of dealing with any one particular unit :) Always! :)
I agree that the new DE list is different than the old and it will be more challenging building the "I win" list, but even in the old edition that was a challenge.

And take it from me (playing DE since First edition codex), all you have to do is adjust to the new things...

I have only played one game with the new codex, but I do some potentials for DE to shine.

Dealing with Nob Bikers... Don't know enough about the new codex to outright say there is a way, but the new Lelith comes to mind as well as Drazhar :)

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Postby Turtle » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:21 pm

incubi with an archon can get nob bikers too
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:27 pm

I like the new DE codex. I especially like it when players try to cram in as many dark lances as they can. I think this is the best way to approach the list.

< said as I busily paint more horde Tyranids for the AWC series >
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Postby YeezyMozart » Mon Nov 15, 2010 11:20 pm

Thats a good umber of lances but a weak list in my opinion I know you mentioned you probably wouldn't run it.

I can't stress that shooting won't work you might have a lot of lances but with the three up cover its not gonna do enough... and the next turn at least half your lances will be gone. I don't think incubi and a archon have a chance.

I think the best way to approach the Dark Eldar codex is more like a eldar list complex and specialist using. . . I think there are a lot of good ways to go and not too sure about the lance spam any more.
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Postby Crumpsky » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:21 am

I have to agree with B-Rad, lance spam is out. People still using lance spam are stuck in the glory days of that list. It's time to jump in your DeLorean and play in 5th.
Basically when you build your lists (this is for tourny play) you have to consider a couple of things; can the list take out Nob Bikers, Horde Orks, Thunderwolf Cavalry? You have to be able to beat deathstar units while still having enough in the army to take out other things. This is where B-Rad's specialized units idea comes in and should work in theory.

I guess we just need people out and playing to see.
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Postby seahawk » Tue Nov 16, 2010 10:34 am

Splinter cannons are scary for non-PA, and one could potentially get plenty of those...they can probably take down even thunderwolves with relative ease, simply because so many shots are hitting and wounding. PA will only get you so far when you have to take 14+ saves...
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealously, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war, minus the shooting." - George Orwell
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Postby moonshadow13 » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:48 pm

Well, From what i have read ( i play regular Eldar) i like what they did with them. I agree with treating them like regular eldar and using the specilized abilities and weapons (one of the great reasons i play eldar) as you can do things that aren't normally allowed or to sum it up. There are the rules and there are the ELDAR rules.

While i would love to run a Eldar/Dark Eldar team this year in the team tournament. Unfortunately my other teamates despise Eldar and so we are sticking with our normal set up.

Even Depayen has to admit as we played a team tournament and technically won outright with a Dark Eldar/Eldar team (after we smoked the competition they decided to add sportmanship score after the tournament was over).

This new codex really helps the Dark eldar be what they are suppost to be. A strike first and strike hard army. I will be play testing against it with my chaos and eldar to get a real feel for it, but i am a little intimidated by it as if it goes first you have to hope like hell you can weather the storm or the game is over in 3-4 rounds.

So when it comes down to it as i am quoting Depayen "It's and all or nothing army". The big scare is if your up agaist one of the leet armies and you go first with this bugger of a army. The only thing you have to worry about now is bad rolls as you pretty much have already won just by getting to attack first.

Fear the Dark Eldar, for their wrath and lust for violence makes any other army pale in comparrison. IN MY OPINION
The new Tau = Death at 30"

Time to bring the Pain!!! For the greater good :)
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Postby Skrivus » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:34 pm

Yeah looking at that list I posted up earlier, it wasn't a very good list. I got caught up in trying to cram as many lances as I could.

So far I've been having fun with a primarily assault oriented list. I have yet to play against IG, Space Wolves, or blood angels, so I don't know how good it really is...

It's a 2K list.

{HQ}
[175] Lelith

[120] 2x Haemonculus w/ liquifier guns

{Elite}
[175] 5x incubi w/ Venom - 2x splinter cannons, flickerfield

[175] 5x incubi w/ Venom - 2x splinter cannons, flickerfield

[280] Hecatrix Bloodbrides - 9 models total, haywire grenades, 1xrazorflail, 1x hydrogauntlets, 1xshardnet/impaler, syren upgrade w/ agonizer & blast pistol - Raider w/ dark lance, flickerfield

{Troops}
[200] Kabalite Warriors - 10x models, 1x blaster, 1x dark lance - Raider w/ dark lance, flickerfield

[200] Kabalite Warriors - 10x models, 1x blaster, 1x dark lance - Raider w/ dark lance, flickerfield

[221] Wyches - 8x total models, haywire grenades, 1x hydro gauntlets, hecatrix upgrade w/ blast pistol, agonizer - - Raider w/ dark lance, flickerfield

[221] Wyches - 8x total models, haywire grenades, 1x hydro gauntlets, hecatrix upgrade w/ blast pistol, agonizer - - Raider w/ dark lance, flickerfield

{Heavy Support}

[115] Ravager - 3x dark lances, flickerfield

[115] Ravager - 3x dark lances, flickerfield

Total - 1997

I usually put 1 haemonculus with the bloodbrides and 1 with a wyche squad, lelith joins the same wyche squad to benefit from the pain token. While the majority of the focus is on assault, I still have 13 dark lances as well as blasters, blast pistols, and haywire grenades to help deal with anti-tank.

I've played a handful of games with the list, against Mech Eldar, Tau, and Orks. I've found the extreme speed of the list (especially assaulting and fleet out of open-topped transports) hard for the opponents to deal with, as I typically am able to dictate where the fighting occurs and hit opponents in close combat at my will.

It typically is suicide to charge a single unit against a single enemy unit, but the speed allows you to concentrate your forces to have a massive advantage in close combat. This then allows you to escape the majority of an enemy's counter assault or close range shooting.

People seem high on the wracks, the only thing I don't like about them is that they don't have fleet, so they reduce your assault threat range. I'll have to get some tests in with them to see if that is really a factor.
Last edited by Skrivus on Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby swampthing » Wed Nov 17, 2010 3:57 pm

as a quick aside, What are you supposed to use as models if you want to use a Void Raven Bomber or the Razor wing Fighter?
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Postby Skrivus » Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:10 pm

swampthing wrote:as a quick aside, What are you supposed to use as models if you want to use a Void Raven Bomber or the Razor wing Fighter?


Here's a pretty good option http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=62230&start=54/

This guy took a Batman flyer and has been converting it into a Void Raven. So far it looks really cool.
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Postby swampthing » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:40 pm

Skrivus wrote:[ So far it looks really cool.


I agree, it seems to be the perfect substitute. I wonder if the people selling these model have any idea why all of a sudden the batman flyer is selling like hot cakes, where 3 weeks ago, you couldnt give them away :P
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