The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. Week #1

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The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly. Week #1

Postby DragonBait » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:44 pm

We have all had a job at some point in our life where there's a little bit of down time, unless of course you're a self-made person. Kudos to you! During some of my down time I thought of a fun and thought provoking idea that I wanted to start up. A weekly look at a codex, and toss around ideas as to what the most underrated, overrated, best, and worst unit of the codex is. I've been playing for just about a decade so I'd like to hear other opinions from all players, new and old. Keep in mind this is purely fun and any thoughts I say are only my personal opinion. I'm going to go in no particular order, so this week I'll start with: CHAOS SPACE MARINES!!!

Most Overrated: Just once again want to point out again here that this is purely my opinion before you guys destroy me lol. I'm going to pick the Chaos Defiler. Worth it's points, sure. Killy, you bet. There's just something a bout a giant model with armor 12 that screams "Kill Me" though. I have something against giant armor 12 targets I guess, since it's the same way with the IG Vendettas...even though those are still way better than a Defiler.

Most Underrated: I've seen them getting some more use here or there, and I think they're definitely worth more usage. Summoned Lesser Daemons. Granted you need to ensure you have some icons available, and they're not the most durable unit around. I just love the fact that they're instant assault support, and an instant scoring unit.

The Best: Granted I've only played CSM a handful of times, but I've seen quite a lot of armies from the codex. It always seems that Plague Marines stand out by far. T5, FNP, Defensive grenades....these guys literally have it all. Sure any number of S8, AP:3 weapons and other things ruin their day, but against an army lacking a lot of them, they can soak up amazing amounts of firepower. With their options like powerfist and meltaguns they are capable of dishing back out the punishment too.

The Worst: There's one kind of unit I particularly dislike in armies like CSM or SM, and that's jump infantry. I don't think an army can do well with specifically one unit of jump infantry. They just never seem to work out well unless there's a second squad on the table, deep striking, or otherwise helping out. For that, I give the worst unit in the book to Chaos Raptors.

Discuss away, I'm curious to hear others' thoughts on the Chaos Space Marines!!
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:11 pm

I disagree that the Defiler is overrated, while I agree wth the AV12 big gun "Kill me" sign on it, with some clever thinking you can turn them into awesome weapons of war.

Agree with Lesser Daemons and Plague Marines and Raptors assessment.
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Postby Crumpsky » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:24 pm

What is your reasoning for disagreeing about the defiler? I would have to agree, it's hard to hide and usually will get shot first. And with AV 12 it may not last that long.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:31 pm

Crumpsky wrote:What is your reasoning for disagreeing about the defiler? I would have to agree, it's hard to hide and usually will get shot first. And with AV 12 it may not last that long.


If you rush other units forward, your defilers may not seem so important anymore...

Which lets them perform well for more than a turn.
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Postby DragonBait » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:34 pm

I can see that point. If the opponent has the first turn. Not many other things in a CSM army really have the range that a defiler does aside from preds or land raider, both of which are easier to hide than the defiler. That's pretty much my beef with it. Too much of a target and much easier to take out is all. Out of curiosity though, what would you say is an overrated CSM unit?
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:17 pm

I can see your point on the Defiler. I was never a big fan of it and I have only started to regularly include it because of metagame considerations.

Most Overrated - I would say the Obliterators. 4+ cover everywhere hampers their plasmacannon shots and there are to many units in the game which kill them outright. Oblits aren't the worst unit in the codex, just the most overrated. I think the strongest army lists take one one unit of these, not 3.

Most Underrated - Lesser Daemons - I totally agree

The Best - The Daemon Prince. I don't need wings and fancy psychic powers. A naked prince with the Mark of Khorne in 120pts and well worth every penny.

The Worst - This is where Chaos shines, unfortunately. So many units were beaten with the nerf bat it's sad. Loyalist bikers are 8pts cheaper and can become troops, possessed can't check for their ability until after they are deployed, but I'll call out the Chaso Spawn for the worst unit in the chaos codex.
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Postby seahawk » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:21 pm

Most Overrated - I'm going to second Obliterators, and add in termicide. A 105 pt tank killer that might come in on time, might land on target within 6", might hit, might penetrate, might destroy its target, after which they're fairly useless. Or it might not do anything all game, especially with IG reserves dinkers.

Most Underrated - Lesser Daemons FTW. So underrated, yet they've won me so many games because of their utility. Havocs too; long range fire support is great when it's otherwise unavailable. Using them in conjunction with lesser daemons makes them even better to hold home objectives while the rest of the army goes off to kill.

The Best - Plague Marines. Being able to have a 5 man squad with two plasma guns is unheard-of in all marine codexes now, not to mention T5 and FNP. They can take and hold, and even fend off.

The Worst - I would second Raptors because their role is entirely redundant; even bikers are more useful. However, the cream of the crap is Spawn. Worse statline in every respect from last edition, and absolutely no save at all (used to be 3+). And they must move towards the nearest enemy (not even the nearest visible, just any closest!) Abso-freakin-lutely USELESS.
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Postby DragonBait » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:38 pm

It appears as I was reading over the entry for spawn, I didn't take it as a serious part of the codex. That it was just for kicks ;)
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Postby moonshadow13 » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:50 am

As initially new player to Chaos (as in i was forced into it by my adepticon teammates) I started to really get a feel playing them for about 2 years now. As i have been able to just wipe the floor with them using my eldar i think i have a feel for what you are asking here.

Most overrated - I have a 2 way tie here. I think the khorne bezerkers are way overrated. the rhino rush is old and easy to take care of. Putting them in a land raider can protect them, but again i pop your rhino and they die like wheat. The other that ties them is again the Obliterators. I can't count the times i droped a str 9 ap 2 blast template on them after they drop in and wipe the entire squad of 3. Anyone and their mother can weather their storm (if you want to call it that), but to me they are just not that good.

Most underrated - i understand the lesser daemon thing but my vote is for the Chaos Dreadnaught. No one plays them because they are crazed. A smart player knows how to position them and with the 45 degree visual rule i love rolling 1s and getting off double shots of my weapons. I have decimated unit upon unit using them so i feel they are the better coice over the lesser daemons.

The Best - by far plague marines are the best troop unit in chaos, but a mark of Tzeentch, wings having Daemon prince with warp time and bolt of change is my #1. I have fielded it over and over in matches and it can weather the storm of tau and IG and then in turn get right in the middle of them and just start killing. 200 pts? totally worth it and extremely hard to kill. I prefer to field 2 and that pretty much occupies my opponent for the entire game or until they die.

The Worst - I have never played raptors to vote on them, but spawn can be cool when you turn a opponent's model into 1 (which is my beleif how they should be used only). However, as Fred pointed out Chaos got nerfed pretty bad and now the worst unit to me is the chaos terminators. After running a few play tests with them they can only truely be played one way.
That being coming out of a land raider with lightning claws and icon of sleenesh. Any other way and they pretty much just die instantanously. Its hard to get a value on them verses what they cost in points. Being 1 dimensional can win some games, but verses any decent player who knows what they can do can still make it hard for them to be effective.
Not being fearless is the icing on the cake.
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Time to bring the Pain!!! For the greater good :)
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Postby Lord Krungharr » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:21 pm

For Chaos Space Marines...

Worst Unit: (besides Spawn) in my 5th edition experience are Obliterators. I don't consider them overrated as I don't see too many people using them or rating them very high. Too easy to kill for the points.

Best Unit: I gotta go with Moonshadow13 and vote for the Tzeentchy Daemon Prince, although I don't use the Bolt. Warptime is plenty good for me usually.

Underrated: Chaos Terminators; I don't typically use them for assault, but as precision fire support. For 195 points you can get 5 with ReaperAC and 4 combi-weapons (I like plasma, or maybe 2 c-meltas/2c-plasmas). They can save against anything the Plague Marines can, and I think the 2+ sv almost cancels out FNP anyway. Plus if they assault they've got Power Weapons too and extra attacks. In a Rhino or Deepstriking or of course in a Land Raider that's efficient nastiness (still not as good as the Loyalist bastard counterparts though)

Overrated: Chaos Socerors and Chaotic Sorcery in general....just never ever worth the points. I love taking my Thousand Sons just to use them sometimes since they survive pretty well, but the Aspiring Sorceror for 60pts plus powers? Then an HQ sorceror ends up being like 200pts with anything decent. Try to give him a disc or jumppack to put with Raptors and it eats up the whole budget.
And what is with every other race being loaded to the brim with 10 or more psychic powers and Tzeentch getting a choice of like 5, most of which are half-assed?
Tzeentch powers don't 'Change' a game like most other races can even though he's the freakin' God of Change,....Slaanesh has a better aim at that with the Lash. SpaceDogs have obscenely sweet powers and they're feral and Khorne-like! Anyway, enough with my rant.

At least my Daemon powers don't need psychic tests, except on the Daemon Lords for some reason known only to the sages of Forgeworld.
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Did Chaos win last year's Gladiator Tournament?

Postby Lord Krungharr » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:23 pm

Since we're discussing Chaos Space Marines, didn't the winner of the Gladiator at Adepticon 2010 win with Chaos Marines? If so, what did his army list look like?
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Postby The Black Knight » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:59 pm

I'm going to add another category too of most un-fluffy thing in the entire codex.... a character by the name of Lucius the Eternal, who isn't an eternal warrior. Come on, the story behind the guy is that if you kill him, he takes over your armor/body, but he can be insta-killed by one fist punch because he's only T4 and no eternal warrior!
The Black Knight always triumphs.
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Postby moonshadow13 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:30 pm

Black Knight - What they should do to make him fit his profile is have him get reborn constantly replacing whoever kills him. With all the crazy rules they have added with the resent new codexes it would be appropiate to just make it that he keeps coming back. It would mess up the head hunting rules except that the only way to really take him out is with a vehicle.

So you basically never want to face him in hand to hand because he cannot die that way. Instead you make sure you smoke him with a vehicle to prevent the reserection into one of your models. That would make it a correct representation :).

Besides the SW have a guy that takes you with him, the bugs have one that deep strikes from below, etc. Its just crazy enough to make sence :).
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Postby DragonBait » Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:46 pm

I love addition of "Most Unfluffy Entry"!!!! I also am enjoying the good discussions and input everyone has given. I hope they're as good each week =)
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