AWC tournament series metagaming

Do you know the best way to beat that unbeatable 40k army? Well post it here and share the knowledge.

Postby langstraad » Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:32 pm

I view 40k gaming as integrating three aspects of play: Experience, the list and talent.

Defeating some of your targets may not be achievable with your list. You may have to make up for the lists shortcomings with the other characteristics.

Lists should also match personality of the player. Find a list that matches your playing style and beef up on experience and you will do better.

It may not be the list that defeats your opponent but how you play it.
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Postby GregSwanson » Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:08 pm

Just a few things I would comment on after playing and playing against Tau for a while. First marker lights. Unless you have a target lock you must shoot the marker light at the target the rest of the unit is firing at. It is treat just like any other weapon. So when your first unit fires at a target it will be hit with 11 shots and three markerlights. Also as an aside the unit that is firing will be unable to use their own markerlights as they are networked. I do not believe that the target lock will apply ot the drones as they are not equipped with it like sniper drones are. Next you defintiely need a way to stop transports from getting to your lines. I suggest instead of burst cannons equip some of your suits with Missile pods. they are in my opinion the best weapon you can put on them. They can pop transports at range, the put wounds on monsterous creatures and any infantry, they also excel at taking down walkers and they have the benefit of having 36" range meaning they are firing from turn 1. Also I have tried using the airbursting frag grenade launcher but you have to be way to close to use this. Plus why make him the Shas O if you are not going to use the BS 5 to good effect? You may want to take a couple of piranhas to use as a skimmer wall if you want to control the opponents moving. I can turbo them up 24" and now they have a 4+ save against shooting they can only be hit on sixes in hth and if they have dischargers guys are making armor saves to hit them. Plus it is a 8" wall that the enemy has to move around or shoot thru giving the units behind cover saves. Good luck with shadow sun I have never seen her used to good effect she costs quite a bit and by putting her with a crisis suit unit you just made her targetable.
Just a few random thoughts take it for what it is worth
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Postby Turtle » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:19 pm

shadowsun is not allowed to join units at all as per the gw faq
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Postby Crumpsky » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:04 pm

moonshadow13 do you really think your list would beat horde orks? Will it be able to kill enough Orks before they hit your lines? I think even a weakened ork boy unit will wipe your fire warriors off the board. How do you stop those units like th/ss terms in a LRC?

You also stated that assault marines are one dimensional which is clearly wrong. First off a unit of assault marines can break into combat squads, (don't know if you think that gives them 1 dimension but I do), they can be armed with melta bombs therefor making each squad able to handle tanks and charging units. You then could add a flamer to one squad and a power fist/weapon. The flamer could be used to clear out some masses of troops before a charge, and the power fist/weapon can be used to hit tough troops to negate saves. In typing this I actually forgot how many dimensions I listed but my point is all your theory looks good on paper.....

try playing it against competent opponents who now know what your going to do.....
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Postby GrouchoM07 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:42 pm

moonshadow13 wrote:OK First i am not stick my units in the wide open spaces. I will initaly set them up in or behind cover in a 3 prong assult back at the 12 " line using my 30" range for single shots and 15" for rapid fire. The 2 outside teams will have at least 1 member of the unit withing 18" of the center of the board.

Heh, good luck finding enough terrain to put those fire warriors in. Every tournament I play has maybe one or two terrain pieces per quarter. Also, Rapid Fire range is 12" for every gun. It's not half distance.

BTW, I don't think those EMP Grenades are going to be as effective you think they are. With a full 12 man unit, you'll only hit 6 times if the tank moves at all (only twice if it moves over 6"). Then you'll get 2 glancing and 1 penetrating hit on average. Finally, you still only have a 1 in 3 shot at killing something. So even in a best case scenario, your odds at killing even a rhino is around 33%.

Please go to Advanced Tau Tactica and read some of their stuff. You'll be a much, much better player for it. Just google it and you'll find it easy.
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Postby moonshadow13 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:01 pm

I haven't had much time to write a reply, but i see my postponing has got some good replies, ideas, and counter info. I will again say that i realize everyone will try to find fault as even explaining my thoughts, you will not understand all i am trying to do.

first to turtle: I don't what you are talking about in FAQs. Its says it quite clearly in the book she cannot join a unit while she has her drones. so telling me its in a FAQ does not matter. Maybe i should ahve been more clear with say she "moves with them".

Since you brought that up i wanted to stress the split attack fusion gun targeting. That will give a chance to pop 2 vehicles in 1 turn. However, once her drones die though she becomes a independant character and CAN join a unit. Look that bad boy up and see if i am wrong :).

For the missile pods and adding pulse gun combos: I looked at adding weapon combos more than once, but this is the issue. Having a targeting array only give you a 3+ to hit. So while having more weapons (2 more shots) can be a good thing i still feel that twin linked give you a better advantage and hitting more rather than attempting to hope to hit and do more damage.

crumpsky: Again i am always looking at what people bring to battles and while a 5 man unit with a flammer and power fist is typical in todays tournaments that is still a very 1 dimensional unit.

If you read my comment on power fists you will see that a single power weapon does not change or add dimensions. nor does the single flammer. the unit is already at a disavantage being a 5 man unit. You were only speak in attack terms too and not in defensive terms. As a 5 man unit (1) 12 man squad of fire warriors could slaughter them in a blink of an eye.

Oh, but the transport. yes 11 armor vs str 5 weapons if nothing else blows it up in the process is still a glanceing hit and you have 2 turns to get yourself into gun range (i am reffering to the unit that will be on its side and it plows foward to rush at a unit it wants to kill). Trust me i look at the aspects and yes that is still 1 dimensional. I brought up warp spiders but made a mistake as they are 3 dimensional with deep strike at full unit strength.

any army that has a full deep strike unit usually get 1 demension from that alone. Now to explain why they are 3 dimensional i will again go over what they do. They are fast moving str6 gun Unit (not 1 str 6 guy). They kill tanks and large squads.

This is why orc players tend to try and take them out as fast as they can, because they will wipe full units a turn. They also give a more guareentee on popping a transport and spilling out the people inside. their 12" move puts them at a advantage to get behind a unit or to its side. did i mention they are a full unit of str 6 weapons? Then there is deep strike where i can not only pop in and shoot you, but i can move another 2d6 inches afterward.

back to Tau: as for finding terrain I am sure any tactician worth his weight can see that they are properly set up. I know you will not agree with everything i say, but thats why i am here to see if i missed anything as i am not perfect. I plan to build a Tau army here soon and i am trying to get lots of feed back on tactics, hence why i am blogging here.

I want to thank everyone for their input both negative and positive. It is all helpful and it really makes me think about while in the process of devising an army. Also i do want to point out every faction in this game is extremely vulnerable to at least 1 other faction to give this game balance. If you want my input on who is to what (if you ahven't figured it out already), well i can only give partial answers as i have not read every codex and studied them throughly.
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Postby moonshadow13 » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:19 pm

Oh sorry forgot about grouchoM07's comments. I did read that and while there is alot of good info for tau players they all stay in the box with their methods of thinking.

I like to play unquie and use out of the box thinking. They dont go past 3 dimentional in most of their thinking. They think too much into 1 type of play and thats just not style. Most players (99%) think of tau as a shooty army with no real defence close up. I plan to show you how they can be more than that and how to do it.

I liked your percentages but you forgot 1 thing in all your calculations. it only takes 1 and they are done. Anyone going full out 12" will be deploying if its a transport so ofcourse i will be busy with what they are deploying and not trying to hit on a 6 on the transport. most likely i will blow up the transport or criple it at range and then smoke the 5 man unit inside for effect.

now if its a skimmer then it only takes 1 my percentages still gives me an advantage as my opponent will not go full out or get too close because str 5 weapons or a emp grenade will get thru. its just simple game math mechanics. We can go around and around on this. So i will tell you what i will try and build one of these armies and take it to a tournament. that or borow it from one of my freinds and we can put it to the test of what does and does not work.

thats how any army gets its true test anyway. On the battlefield. If i can get one of the Tau players to bring my setup idea to the jan 23rd tournament i might just play it. Of course you all will know my army spec, but that just makes it more challenging and winning will be that much more better for proving the army's worth
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Postby YeezyMozart » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:38 am

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Postby Elthniar » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:18 am

Okay I have been reading this for the last month and I didn't want to get involved at first, but this is getting ridiculous. moonshadow13, please spare us all any more comments about 6 or 3 or 2 or however many "dimensions" of armies you have come up with.

The fact remains, you are just starting Tau, so you cannot possibly have a feel for how they play, and you are completely ignoring the sound advice of some excellent gamers who have played Tau for years. You say you do not even own the models for this list, so how can you possibly claim that this will be such a great one? I know it is easy to get caught up in our ideas and think we have built the perfect list, but at least be respectful to those who know a thing or two about the Tau.

There is nothing wrong with a little good-natured trash-talking either, but you really need to stop. We all know you think your list will win the next AWC, and that you will be hailed as a tactical genius. If you do win, I will be the first to congratulate you and listen to your brilliant idea of how to build a 6 dimension army. But until then, give it a rest. I hope you do play Alan in the next AWC. Unfortunately I am unable to attend or I would very much like to take a shot at you myself. The bad news is you don't have a very good chance of getting to play him, because unless it is the first round I think you two will be in different brackets.

So, in summary, please surprise us moonshadow13. Show us how awesome it is to run a 6-dimensional Tau army! Boast about it all you want after you win not just the next AWC but all the tournaments at Adepticon too! But until you at least play your first game with this army, just cool it for a while.
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Postby moonshadow13 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:34 am

Wow B-rad you sound very intelligent with your well spoken words on tactical advice. What this post was suppost to be about was tactical advice on army builds you think would work the best. Also tactical information on the different armies that are being played.

I realize my thought process is too confusing for you. I am merely going over my tactical experiance as i am sure you too were in the Army for 6 years and severed in the Special Forces and were in 2 REAL wars. Also you must have 4 college degrees with 2 of them in engineering as well to have a break down aspect of game boards and playing peices in a geometirc sence.

Now while i have made many claims of not knowing everything as you seem to feel i do. I have won and lost many battles in this tournament and others. What you fail to realize is by losing too i learn to build and design a better army and i don't sit on these boards and type hateful messages spewing forth words that remind me of a Plague marine's stench that i am sure matches your own.

Elthniar I never said its going to win, I even posted it needs to be battle tested and proven. Please read my posts if you want to comment on them. All of these discussion are suppose to be on tactics and while i obviously play eldar (and Chaos) i have been trying other armies and like to dicuss my form of tactics with others. I am not saying they are "The Law". All i am doing is both throwing some of my tactical ideas and gettign great information from people like GregSwanson, Redbeard, and several others on their understanding of the game.

In the military you may think that the commanding general calls the shots and it is his descision and his thoughts alone that decide what will take place in a battle. In fact he has many advisers and uses all their information and tactical knowledge to come to a final conclusion and give his well thought out answer on the battlefiled that is before him. Much like this game and your opponent you face. You come in with what you and your advisiors put together as the best option and try to maintian your battle plans. Ofcourse not everythign goes according to plan and that is the way of war.

I have recieved and acknowledged serveral good tactical ideas and uses in building and playing a Tau army. I will once again thank those people who were helpful and giving me more options to look at in REVISING my INITIAL army build from a tactical stand point.

As for people like B-Rad who just displayed their lack of civility in a discussion on tactics let me just say. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.
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Postby Grippandosaurus-rex » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:01 pm

As for people like B-Rad who just displayed their lack of civility in a discussion on tactics let me just say. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.

To be fair, he has placed higher than you in every tournament so far...
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Postby moonshadow13 » Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:53 pm

Grippa: and? This is about discussing tactics not insecure teenangers ranting and swearing because they cannot follow along or understand what i am talking about.

I am truthfully done with the whole tau tactics discussion thing for now as i got the information i needed and plan to revise and build a different design.

Winning is only part of the experiance my friend in any tournament. I came to learn more about the diferent setups as i love a good tactical game. I gave up mech warrior right before the decline and i was ranked 1st in Ill. and Wis. and 52nd in the world. What did that mean? that i learned to play the game well. Those kind of tactics you can't just buy at a store but learn over time. Took me 3 years to get there

I have since moved on and now i am playing Warrhammer 40K. I lost alot to the players in the stores at first, but after awhile i got tired of winning against the local players i decided to move up into the bigger tournaments (with a certain friend urging me to) with the top players from different stores. This provides me with more information and better players (yes i said you are ALL better players). You provide me with a new challenge. Though i will not win consistantly win at first. i will eventually (prays to the dice gods) and that ranking system means nothing to me but another opportunity to play and LEARN about the game.

So grippa "to be fair" i was talking about tactics and how a tau army can win if played right. I got info on how to make them better. So as for records as soon as i know who HE is i could tell you if he played me or not. You can be higher than me and yet never played me. Does that make you better? No it just means the armies you faced you were successful at beating.

I tend to run into armies like Sam's neat army of Space wolves. We either break even or his squeaks one by me. We don't always agree on things, but hes a good player and has a very unique set up. So my tournamnets are usually a win, bump or loss, followed by another win. You have to win all 3 usually to place. I will get there eventually its just a matter of when and who i face off against.

Now can we go back to tactics? i wanted to ask about the Witch Hunters as i have spent the last couple of weeks reading into the outdated, but useful codex. But thats for my next post on tactics.
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Postby Depayen » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:41 pm

It's time to stop this thread.
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Postby blackbone » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:43 pm

Thanks, all. I had a good laugh at work reading about how serious you take your toy soldiers. :) Yikes.

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Postby RichN » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:14 pm

Depayen wrote:It's time to stop this thread.

I agree. If discussion remains on this topic, please open a new thread.
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