Grey Knights are broken

You just finished the best 40K game of your life and you have to let the world know just how cool it was! Post your report here with all the glorious details.

Grey Knights are broken

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun Jan 29, 2012 3:41 pm

I brought Grey Knights to the January AWC tournament. They were my play test army from home, something I play against the others painted armies I bring to tourneys. The GK had been doing great against my lists. Only my vanilla marines had come close to beating them and that was one time. I decided I needed to take them out and play other competition to see if the army was really that good and whether I should spend time painting them up.

The Internet has been abuzz with declarations the GK are a broken codex. Equal time has been spent trying to refute that claim and stating the GK are strong but not a broken codex. Most of that boils down to the lack of 1st place finished for GK last year when they came out. Interestingly enough the first big tourney of this year, the Colonial, was won by GK.

My own personal opinion is that the GK codex has a lot of fat it in. Fat in the form of GK fluff units. Take those away and someone can build a rock solid list that incorporates a patchwork of GK units that were probably not expected to ever work together, at least from a fluff perspective. In the hands of an average player the GK can make them a tough opponent. In the hands of a good player, the GK can make them great and in the hands of a top player the GK can make them almost unstoppable to anything short of the dice playing havoc with you.

Most good GK lists have few models and units compared to most other lists. Many of the GK advantages (grenades, force weapons, death cult assassins, psychic powers, etc..) make those small units many times more powerful then normal. The biggest disadvantage of a good GK force is that it can suffer from a round of below average dice rolls more so than a bigger army. Those few models are strong, but even 1's will kill them and sometimes people roll three 1's out of 5 dice.

Because of this most top GK lists want to shorten the game as much as possible. If they can remove most of the enemy army by turn 3, then there are fewer turns left in the game to potentially suffer a bad round of dice rolling.

Another weakness of GK lists tend to be their reliance on range 24" guns to do most of the damage. The GK will close quickly against most lists so that isn't a problem, however if you have an army that discourages getting close to, then the GK will have to sit back until the threat is dealt with. Unfortunately just about the only thing a GK list would fear up close would be another GK list.

In my GK list I have tried to take their minor weaknesses and make it their strengths. In this way I hoped to get the advantage on enemy GK lists while still having the inherent strengths of the GK to use against everyone else.

My list is as follows:

HQ - librarian, 2 skulls, (might, quicksilver, shrouding, sanctuary)
HQ - Coteaz

EL - Venerable Dreadnought, 2 twin-linked auto cannons, psy-ammo

TR - 10 Terminators, Thawn, 2 psycannons, banner, psy-ammo
TR - 6 death cult assassins
TR - 3 Acolytes, razorback, psy-ammo
TR - 3 Acolytes, razorback, psy-ammo
TR - 3 Acolytes, razorback, psy-ammo

HV - Land Raider
HV - Dreadnought, 2 twin-linked auto cannons, psy-ammo
HV - Dreadnought, 2 twin-linked auto cannons, psy-ammo


Game 1 vs marines

Opponents list:

2 land raiders
2 redeemers
2 five man assault terminators
4 five man scout squads
Librarian


This is a dawn of war deployment. I went first and deployed Coteaz and 10 terminators at the 24" line. My opponent deploys nothing. My army came on and the terms moved back a little. 4 land raiders come on with 2 scout squads in reserve. A pot shot kills Thawn who gets back up on my turn and starts to move toward an objective deep in my opponents deployment zone.

I stay back and start stripping land raiders of guns. I concentrate on the Godhammers to remove their lascannons. My psycannons destroy one Godhammer and the dreads knock a lascannon off another.

The marines are quickly losing the shooting war and they assault the terminators with 5 assault termies. Null zone goes off, but the fight is inconclusive. On my turn I wipe out the termies and Thawn gets to an enemy objective.

I begin to spread out to cover objectives and continue stripping/immobilizing the land raiders. The marines last assault terminator squad gets out of an immobilized redeemer and jumps an acolyte razorback. I counter attack with the death cult assassins who wipe them out in assault.

90pts of death cult assassins is better than 200pts of assault terminators in assault. GK are broken.

Things are dropping fast now and I table the marines on turn 6.


Game 2 vs. Grey Knights

Coteaz
Inquisitor with grenades
Tech marine with grenades
10 purifiers in rhino
5 purifiers in rhino
Death cult assassins in rhino
Death cult assassins in rhino
Acolytes in ass back
Acolytes in ass back
3 servitors with plasma cannons, acolyte, chimera
3 rifle dreads


This is what I mean about removing the fat(fluff) from the GK codex and making something more powerful than expected. This is a rock hard list designed to table the opponent. The plasmacannon servitors are 'tech' in that they are in there to kill meq, especially enemy GK's. IMO they are a very clever choice. However this list only has 3 units that can shoot more than 24" while I have 8 (my raider can split fire). This is the kind of advantage I was hoping for in a GK vs. GK battle and I intend to use it.


This game is a pitched battle with kill points, table quarters and recon as the objectives. Recon is where you need to get more units in the enemy deployment zone to win. My opponent wins the roll and deploys first. 2 units are near the center, but all the rest are right of center hugging a short wall. There is a large ruin the center of the table so everyone will have cover unless you can get on the side of the ruin.

I deploy on my far left side almost as far back as I can go. I can get shots around the center ruin quicker and I easily outrange his 24" guns at this distance. Everything is near the land raider and the librarians shrouding so my cover saves should be better also.

Over the first 3-4 turns my guns are more effective and they begin to take their toll on his army. I take a shot at one of his dreads here or there, but I mainly concentrate on his transports. I don't want many units to make it to my deployment zone. I keeps moving the land raider, 2 razorbacks and 2 dreads around his right flank and towards his deployment zone.

He manages to get the purifiers into the center ruin to contest table quarters, but my terminators shoot them up and then charge them to kill them. I get 6 units into his deployment zone and he gets a rhino carrying 4 units and a walking acolyte squad to tie recon. I easily get kill points and my terminators holding the center gets me the table quarters.


Round 3 vs. Grey Knights

Coteaz
Librarian
Tech marine with grenades
5 purifiers in razorback
Vindicate
3 acolytes in lascannon razorback
3 acolytes in lascannon razorback
5 death cult assassins, 4 crusaders
5 death cult assassins, 4 crusaders in chimera
Storm raven
3 rifle dreads

This list has as much long range shooting as me, but on more fragile frames. I win the roll and force him into a deployment corner with one small wall section. I deploy in force around a large ruin and he reserves the storm raven, Coteaz, one dreadnought and tech marine with a death cult unit on board. The rest deploys right behind the reinforced wall and up a hill. His cover saves will be 2+ when the librarian in chimera gets shrouding off.

How the he'll does someone punch through this ridiculousness? You need to maneuver around this tiny piece of cover to get shots that won't be stopped by a 2+ roll. If I hadn't placed him in that minimum cover deployment zone, then he would have had a 2+ cover save dispersed behind a bigger ruin and better lanes of fire.

Seriously very few armies, outside another GK army, can hope to punch through this craziness. This list plays on autopilot. You don't even need to know the rules to win with this. It's no fault of the player, it's what the codex allows you to do and it's wrong.

I lay into a razorback on turn 1. ALWAYS KILL THE TRANSPORTS VS. GREY KNIGHTS! And punch through to explode it. He doesn't do anything and hides. I move the land raider around my left to get side shots around the wall for next turn and move the terminators up into some woods dead center with Coteaz taking the lead.

The storm raven monster unit comes in and turbos towards me dead center. Coteaz let's me fire at them for coming out of reserve within 12" of him and he turns the terminators on the storm raven. I explode it and everything on board is killed. Game over. I pick off units for the rest of the game and absorb a death cult assault into the termies, but finish them off.

Moving the storm raven in front of Coteaz was a freak move. The tech marine bolstering a ruin and the librarians shrouding ability is just insane. You can't outshoot that cover save normally and trying to assault it is suicide because of the death cult assassins.



Now here is what you need to do to beat these GK lists. I know not all GK lists are the same, but remove the fat and mix the orders (henchmen should never be allowed on the same field as grey knight marines or dreads) and the GK can become almost unbeatable.


1). Refuse to ever play them. If it is a tournament, then just shake their hands and say good win. Save yourself the grief and maybe they will eventually go away.

2) Play Tau. Seriously. Tau have the tools to remove cover saves which GK thrive on. They also have the long range shots dispersed through their army to take down transports. Tau are owned by Blood Angle DOA lists, but those are gone now that the GK are on the scene.

3). Shoot the transports first. Those rifle dreads are going to hurt, but resist the urge to shoot at them. The GK transports are carrying undersized units that are a huge threat in combat. Deny them the ride and they die a lot easier hoofing it across the board. Killing the transports is the key to beating GK. Most people don't do that because they fear the dreads to much.



I've run across a number of players who say they just won't play Grey Knights. So many people are playing them right now I understand why. On top of that playing GK are like taking steroids in baseball. It makes a minor league player a major league player, but it makes a major league player into a hall of famer (until busted). If you win a tourney with GK it is expected. It is assumed your list won it for you and not your ability. I understand that. The bad part is, and I've said it before, players can still make a pure GK list that doesn't take advantage of the crazy combinations. Those players and their decent GK lists are being lumped into the over the top lists and that is to bad.
Last edited by Generalissimo_Fred on Sun Jan 29, 2012 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Generalissimo_Fred
 
Posts: 1248
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Elgin, IL

Postby DaGrippster » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:16 pm

This is what I mean about removing the fat(fluff) from the GK codex and making something more powerful than expected. This is a rock hard list designed to table the opponent. It only has 3 units that can shoot more than 24" while I have 8 (my raider can split fire). This is the kind of advantage I was hoping for in a GK vs. GK battle and I intend to use it.


Glad you liked the list 8)

Brian made it sound like it was a very close game, I am looking forward to reading your report.
DaGrippster
 
Posts: 198
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:31 pm

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:00 pm

DaGrippster wrote:
This is what I mean about removing the fat(fluff) from the GK codex and making something more powerful than expected. This is a rock hard list designed to table the opponent. It only has 3 units that can shoot more than 24" while I have 8 (my raider can split fire). This is the kind of advantage I was hoping for in a GK vs. GK battle and I intend to use it.


Glad you liked the list 8)

Brian made it sound like it was a very close game, I am looking forward to reading your report.


I didn't go into a lot of detail each round. I felt I had an advantage with my extra long range guns and the mission objectives. On the top of the last three turns Brian had the game tied and on the bottom of each turn I went up 1-2 objectives. Turn 6 was a turning point as two dreads who had been sniping each other all game from behind cover, and not doing anything, made it out of cover and took point blank shots at each other. I went first, but whirred on everything. Brian returned fire and nuked me. That was a he'll of a sequence.

That one rhino that made it into my deployment zone was carrying death cult assassins, a tech marine, an inquisitor and Coteaz. That was a lot of units in that one rhino. I needed Thawn to stand up on either turn 6 or 7 to have a shot at winning recon but he stayed down until the end.

It was definitely a game of maneuver and shooting. The only assaults the entire game was with the terminators in the center ruin.
Generalissimo_Fred
 
Posts: 1248
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Elgin, IL

Postby seahawk » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:59 pm

It was definitely a game of maneuver and shooting.
That's how all of my games with GK and against GK have gone.
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealously, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war, minus the shooting." - George Orwell
seahawk
 
Posts: 792
Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:36 am
Location: Sycamore, IL

Postby Lord Krungharr » Tue Jan 31, 2012 12:47 am

The only thing I can field to not embarrass myself vs. the GKs are Obliterators, and more Obliterators, in cover, far away. The double-Lash can help, but not nearly as much as with other armies.

As for close combat with them, I had a game where Kharn lasted 3 full turns of combat against 3 different units, and Abbadon 4 full turns; after wiping out a Purifier unit, then he get shot in the back by a Dreadnought for his last wound. That was a cool battle....
User avatar
Lord Krungharr
 
Posts: 508
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:59 pm
Location: Lehigh Acres, FL

Postby swampthing » Tue Jan 31, 2012 3:40 pm

1). Refuse to ever play them. If it is a tournament, then just shake their hands and say good win. Save yourself the grief and maybe they will eventually go away.

2) Play Tau. Seriously. Tau have the tools to remove cover saves which GK thrive on. They also have the long range shots dispersed through their army to take down transports. Tau are owned by Blood Angle DOA lists, but those are gone now that the GK are on the scene.

3). Shoot the transports first. Those rifle dreads are going to hurt, but resist the urge to shoot at them. The GK transports are carrying undersized units that are a huge threat in combat. Deny them the ride and they die a lot easier hoofing it across the board. Killing the transports is the key to beating GK. Most people don't do that because they fear the dreads to much.

4) Force anyone who wishes to play GK at a tournament, to do so in DRAG.
swampthing
 
Posts: 330
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 9:34 am
Location: Palatine/Aurora/Palatine etc.etc.

Postby Redbeard » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:09 pm

Didn't people say the same thing about Chaos Space Marines (Specifically, Lash)? And Nob Bikers? And Space Wolves? And IG sweepers?
"All very successful commanders are prima donnas and must be so treated."

George S. Patton
User avatar
Redbeard
 
Posts: 1228
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:55 am
Location: Homewood, IL

Postby Hero Jones » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:38 pm

I've beaten the new GK with my Eldar on several occasions now. +1 to Redbeard.

HJ
Hero Jones
 
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:00 pm

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:20 pm

Hero Jones wrote:I've beaten the new GK with my Eldar on several occasions now. +1 to Redbeard.

HJ


Good for you. In the hands of a top player, however, I have little doubt you would even stand a chance against the Grey Knights.

You see there are so many people who have jumped on the GK bandwagon that it is easy to find suboptimal players who are playing "grey knights". GK in the hands of a good player is something completely different.
Generalissimo_Fred
 
Posts: 1248
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Elgin, IL

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:23 pm

Redbeard wrote:Didn't people say the same thing about Chaos Space Marines (Specifically, Lash)? And Nob Bikers? And Space Wolves? And IG sweepers?



At first I agreed with you Redbeard. It took a new edition and a codex correction (obliterators went from toughness 5 to toughness 4 in mid-codex) to calm the chaos codex and maybe the new edition due this summer will change the direction of the GK. But right now there is no hyperbole. The codex can just be that damn good.
Generalissimo_Fred
 
Posts: 1248
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Elgin, IL

Postby Redbeard » Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:45 pm

How does it stack up against the full-blown shooty guard lists? Grey Knights aren't any harder to knock down than any other marines - with the exception that their vehicles are harder to suppress. If guard armies can shoot other marines off the table - marine armies with more bodies - can mid-range knight shooting be that effective against them?

Although, I think that a lot of places have seen increased terrain usage since guard were really having their shooting galleries.

What about a shooty ork list? Lots of lootas, some kannons, and shoota boyz. It should neutralize a lot of the GK 'quality shot' emphasis, and for the same points, an ork player can have 30 shoota boyz for the cost of a handful of paladins and their ride.
"All very successful commanders are prima donnas and must be so treated."

George S. Patton
User avatar
Redbeard
 
Posts: 1228
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:55 am
Location: Homewood, IL

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:34 pm

Redbeard wrote:How does it stack up against the full-blown shooty guard lists? Grey Knights aren't any harder to knock down than any other marines - with the exception that their vehicles are harder to suppress. If guard armies can shoot other marines off the table - marine armies with more bodies - can mid-range knight shooting be that effective against them?

Although, I think that a lot of places have seen increased terrain usage since guard were really having their shooting galleries.

What about a shooty ork list? Lots of lootas, some kannons, and shoota boyz. It should neutralize a lot of the GK 'quality shot' emphasis, and for the same points, an ork player can have 30 shoota boyz for the cost of a handful of paladins and their ride.



I think guard have a hardtime since they lost their psychic hood. If the GK have a tech marine and a librarian, then they can make a ruin a 2+ cover save from guard shooting. Given the right size ruin, that means all the dreads will be almost invulnerable.

Without the ruin, then the GK have 3+ cover saves from shooting. It's the vehicles that do most of the shooting in a GK list and you are right, guard can not suppress them. The guard will have to always be on the move. A 105pt death cult assassin squad can quickly all become strength 6 + 2d6 armor penetration from 2 psychic powers. It's a hard battle for guard to win.

Let me say also that the best GK lists tend not to take Paladins. It's henchmen and a smattering of marines/purifiers or mostly purifiers in vehicles. It's the purifiers that will be the bane of ork hordes. Cleansing flame makes short work of even 30-man boys squads.

It's not impossible, but between psychotrope grenades which can make the orks all attack each other, or reduce their attacks to one per model or make the enemy hit them with rerolls to hit etc.. Plus reducing their toughness to 3 with rad grenades, plus hitting them with cleansing flame which wounds every model in the unit on a 4+. It's not hard to imagine a scenario where an undersized GK squad wipes a 30-man ork mob at initiative 6. All of that can be done by a 5-man purifier squad with an attached 55pt Inquisitor. All of it in one assault.

Once again this is a dice game and anything can happen, however it doesn't look good in the long run. Let me put it this way. It is universally accepted that Dark Eldar venom spam is a bad matchup versus Tyrands. The bugs have an uphill battle from turn one. Every once in a while the dice Gods can throw the Tyranids a bone and they will win a game against the venom spam. In my mind, Venom spam is the best GK builds used by the top players and everyone else is playing Tyranids.
Generalissimo_Fred
 
Posts: 1248
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:31 am
Location: Elgin, IL

Postby Redbeard » Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:07 am

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:Let me say also that the best GK lists tend not to take Paladins. It's henchmen and a smattering of marines/purifiers or mostly purifiers in vehicles. It's the purifiers that will be the bane of ork hordes. Cleansing flame makes short work of even 30-man boys squads.

It's not impossible, but between psychotrope grenades which can make the orks all attack each other, or reduce their attacks to one per model or make the enemy hit them with rerolls to hit etc.. Plus reducing their toughness to 3 with rad grenades, plus hitting them with cleansing flame which wounds every model in the unit on a 4+. It's not hard to imagine a scenario where an undersized GK squad wipes a 30-man ork mob at initiative 6. All of that can be done by a 5-man purifier squad with an attached 55pt Inquisitor. All of it in one assault.


Well, this is why the ork player is running shoota boyz. I agree, a handful of purifiers can murder 30 boyz in assault, but shooting? If the lootas can knock the purifiers out of their vehicles, we're talking about a very small number of wounds to destroy the squad, and a lot of shots to do it with.

I had considered the techmarine issue, but, short of playing at the new bunker where all the terrain is GW kits now, I'm not sure that you can assume there will be ruins to reinforce. On the adepticon tables last year, very few had 'ruins', and had rocks, trees, and stuff, far more often than they had ruins.
"All very successful commanders are prima donnas and must be so treated."

George S. Patton
User avatar
Redbeard
 
Posts: 1228
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:55 am
Location: Homewood, IL

Postby muwhe » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:23 am

Fred,

While the GK's are certainly great to excellent in the current meta. I think if I had to build an army purely to play competitive 40K at events. I'd start with the Space Wolves .... which in my mind is still tops.

Once 6th, edition rolls around I'm sure that will be even more the case.

So as always with 40K, if you don't like what the current state of 40k is like .. wait a bit .. it will come back around... we been through a number of highs and lows over the years .. have to see what 6th brings us.
muwhe
AdeptiCon Oracle
 
Posts: 781
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:15 pm


Return to Battle Reports (40K)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron