MGD induced GK farce

Post and review Warhammer 40K army lists.

MGD induced GK farce

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue May 31, 2011 9:07 am

I spent most of Memorial Day weekend in the basement working feverishly on a GK list. By the end of Monday this is the ridiculous army I came up with.

HQ - Kaldor
HQ - Librarian (Might, Quicksilver, shrouding, sanctuary)

TR - 10 paladins, 4 psycannons, banner, apothecary, (different weapons)
TR - 5 terminators, psycannon

HV - Dread, 2x autocannons, psybolt ammo
HV - Dread, Multi-melta, autocannon, psybolt ammo
HV - Dreadknight, incinerator, sword


20 MODELS!!

Someone slap me silly. I lined up against a mech BA castle and got shot off the board. Next game I deep struck into their face and one Might of Titan later everything with a tread was immobile or destroyed. The Apothecary saved me vs. Footdar and who would have thought the Avatar was a Daemon (whoops). Once he died the Eldar lines collapsed. Final game was against a Space Wolf Death Star (inspired by Norbu's tournament). 38 str 5 force weapon attacks later (20 at initiative 5 or higher) and most of the deathstar was gone (so was I). Kaldor and 2 paladins made it out of the fight and the Dreadknight picked apart the grey hunters.

The Librarian puts the Paladins over the top. I only used shrouding once and it didn't matter as I either rolled a 1 or 4 for cover. Sanctuary was actually bigger help than I thought. It kept a unit of Death Company from charging me for a turn and they ended up getting charged by me instead. It also scraped a few wolves off of the TWC Death Star (not sure if I played it right, but I tested for the attached Wolves to).

20 models would be the Holy Grail of veteran 40k gaming. I'm not saying this is the new bully on the block, but I might have a chance against any list out there and that's all I can ask. Greg before you ask, unless it's the weekends or a weeknight, I'm not available to play during the day until the week of June 20th.
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Postby Norbu the Destroyer » Tue May 31, 2011 10:16 am

The Paladins plus the libby is extrely deadly. I think the lists that give the paladins lots of trouble are the oblit/abadon type chaos lists, and TH/SS termie Dark Angels.

The Grey Knight codex does allow for low model count armies that can kick ass, but a bad batch of rolling early can really sink those armies quick.

I would find the points to get a banner in the termy unit. Just for the attacks alone the banner is good, but being able to just put a wound on a trygon with a halbred and taking the trygon off the board without a shadow of the warp psychic test is worth it.
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Postby Redbeard » Tue May 31, 2011 7:06 pm

This is similar to what I'm working on - I've got the models and have started assembly.



Kaldor
Librarian
10 paladins, upgrades w/ doc, banner, 4 psycannons
5 terminators, including justicar neversaydie
dual AC ven dread
vindicare assassin
- 1850
+ techmarine w/ lots of grenades = 2000.


I want an army that I can take to tournaments across the country on my bike.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue May 31, 2011 8:58 pm

Why go with the Techmarine up to 2K? How about another assassin, maybe the Callidus?
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Postby Redbeard » Wed Jun 01, 2011 6:17 am

I like the techie for a few reasons.

access to all the cool grenades. I dunno, they just seem fun.

he's an IC, with 2+, so he can join the other units without losing much. And, unlike the marine versions, he can get an invul save, so he's not a big risk in CC either.

he's not bad in CC, with the extra 2 S8 attacks, and has a certain swiss-army-knife value, providing a flamer and a plasma shooting option.

fortifying a ruin can put the vindicare up to a 2+ cover save. Vindicare is statistically the best anti-tank option in the game right now (including half-range melta), and that's something GK need, so making him as unattractive to shoot at as possible is good.


As for the other assassins, I think they've 180'd from the last version.

Eversor now seems impossible to get into combat. He's lost his 12" charge, so he'll infiltrate, run up, and then get shot.

Callidus seems like a more expensive marbo. She'll show up, I'll roll 1 for her d6 hits, then she'll flame one unit, and then die unsupported.

Cullexus is a gimmick. One I'd like to find a way to use in a Coteaz + psyker henchmen list, but again, the 2 wounds and huge potential threat seems like he'd be killed before pulling it off.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:28 am

Good points. I hadn't thought about using the techmarine to attach to another unit and use the grenades. That's a good idea. I agree about the Vindicares anti-tank ability. Having the weapon ap1 is icing on the cake. The Techmarines bolster defenses will indeed allow him to live longer. I had worried about the Vindy getting shot at because his heavy weapon needs to be in position before he can shoot. I had envisioned deploying a rhino/razorback in front of him to block enemy LOS and then moving it away and having him shoot. My current list has no vehicles big enough to block him though.

The Callidus could have a psychological effect on your opponent, but that might just be about it. I agree with your assassin assessment (alliteration of es's for you english majors). The Eversor and Cullexus scream Stormraven to get where they need to go, though I forget if they can ride in it.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Jun 01, 2011 7:33 am

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:I would find the points to get a banner in the termy unit. Just for the attacks alone the banner is good, but being able to just put a wound on a trygon with a halbred and taking the trygon off the board without a shadow of the warp psychic test is worth it.



I agree the banner is nice, but I'm already replacing one twin-linked autocannon with a multi-melta on a dread to get under points. (something I shouldn't do) Unless I take off the sword on the dreadknight, I'm not sure where I could get any more points out of this list.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed Jun 01, 2011 8:30 am

Why use the sword on the knight?

He's hitting most things on a 3+ already, so I don't think it's getting you a whole lot there. What's more, with 2 doomfists, you get an extra attack. With two different special weapons you don't (page 42, main rulebook).

So with two fists, you're looking at 4 base attacks @ws5, 2.66 hits expected. With the sword, you're still looking at 2.66 hits - no real gain here.

With the fist, you wound almost everything on 2+. With the sword you get a reroll, but lose the bonus strength. You gain a slight edge on killing stuff T5 or lower, but swinging at T6+, S10 > S6+reroll.

Likewise, you get to reroll armour pen rolls, but what would you rather have, 10+2d6 or 6+2d6(rerollable)?

25 points is a lot to pay for no statistical benefit in # of hits, and a 15% boost in wounding T4 models.

I say lose the sword ;)
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:31 am

I like the idea of rerolling hits vs vehicles who move flat out/skimmers. Also the big chracters and MC's will be WS 5 or higher. I make sure I hit them to use the Force Weapon (I'm looking at you Mephiston). I'm not sure I lose an extra attack. The Librarian dread gets the extra attack. No rulebook with me right now.

Am I str 10 or str 6? I still have a doomfist in my other hand which makes me str 10. Does a Wraithlord lose it's str 10 status if it uses the wraithsword to reroll a hit in combat? Maybe the same rule applies to the Dreadknight.

I am not sure about any of these things.


PS If I remove the sword I would rather get the rifleman back his autocannon and take 3 servo skulls for the Libby. I'm not sure if keeping infiltrators back is worth it though.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:50 am

There are differences between a wraithsword, a nemesis doomfist sword, and a walker with a DCCW.

The first distinction is that wraithlords and dreadknights are monstrous creatures. Dreadnoughts, defilers, soul grinders, etc. are walkers.

Walkers follow the rules on page 73. There are two parts. The first is the definition of a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon - a power weapon that doubles the walker's strength in CC.

The second part is specific to walkers. This says that if a walker is given two or more close combat weapons, it gets a bonus attack for each over the first.

But monstrous creatures are not walkers. Failing additional special rules, they rely on the basic rules for weapons on page 42. This means that if you have two different special weapons, you do not get a bonus attack, whereas if you have two of the same special weapon, you do.


Wraithlords are a different case entirely. They're not relying on dreadnought close combat weapons for their S10, they've got S10 on their profile. This is one reason that they lost an attack in their 4e codex, compared to the 3ed one. In 3rd, they had two dreadnought CCWs, and a base strength of 5, so their profile attacks were 2(3).


The dreadknight is base S6. Per the main rulebook, if you're equipped with two different special weapons, you must pick which you use each turn. If you choose the sword, you're S6 with the rerolls. If you use the fist, you're S6(10), with an extra attack from the second fist.




edit: On hitting flat-out skimmers, your expected hits with 5 attacks (you're charging it) are roughly .83. With 4 attacks with re-rolls, you boost that to 1.2. On swinging at WS10 opponents, base attacks, 4 swings yields 2 expected hits. Three swings with re-rolls boosts that to 2.25. But rolling to wound Mephiston, each S10 hit wounds .83% of the time, while the re-rolled S6 swing is only 75%.

Still not sure these marginal boosts are worth 25 points.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:13 am

Redbeard you make a convincing case. Now if the sword just wasn't so cool looking on him .......


edit: Ah screw the cool sword. STR 10 instant kills TWC before any psychic test needs to be made.
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Postby Turtle » Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:42 am

however when you need the str 10 just dont use the sword that turn and use the doomfist, problem solved with best of both worlds. and the str gains are marginal of course the real value in a sword is the reroll to hit. ive already seen these guys charge in and whiff. the reroll to hit makes the sword a much much better buy especially in hitting vehicles

the only thing 2 doomfists gain you over a sword is +1 attack, since if you buy a sword you have a doomfist and a sword
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Postby Cptn_Snuggles » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:14 am

This is the dream vet list... something I could paint up really cool and move it around in a small travel case. Could be my flying army, small enough to fit in the overhead storage.

How are you modeling up the dreads?

I told my self no new armies until my Dark Eldar are done... it's going to be tough to keep off the shiny objects!

Cheers,
BC
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:21 am

Turtle wrote:however when you need the str 10 just dont use the sword that turn and use the doomfist, problem solved with best of both worlds. and the str gains are marginal of course the real value in a sword is the reroll to hit. ive already seen these guys charge in and whiff. the reroll to hit makes the sword a much much better buy especially in hitting vehicles

the only thing 2 doomfists gain you over a sword is +1 attack, since if you buy a sword you have a doomfist and a sword



Yeah you are right. The importance of the sword rerolls isn't to get 1-2 rerolls, but for when you flub 4 attacks on the charge into something you need to kill. I say the sword stays.
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Postby GregSwanson » Wed Jun 01, 2011 4:15 pm

All right I have a bunch of questions for the Nemesis Doomfists on the Knight. They count as a power fist right? Does that mean the knight is now swinging at int 1? Obviously a non dreadnought cannot use a DDCW. Also it specifically says a knight may use a hammer in int order. So a knight without a sword is str 10 at int 1? I have been playing him all wrong I thought he was in t 4 with str 6. Alex or fred can you clarify this for me.
Thanks
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