A desperate plea, caution may contain new thoughts

Post and review Warhammer 40K army lists.

A desperate plea, caution may contain new thoughts

Postby Turtle » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:31 pm

I have noticed a very interesting trend in army list construction that is in my opinion becoming more and more alarming. Anybody want to take a guess, go ahead I'll wait...



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I'm not sure why everybody feels the need to copy and paste units in their army lists. In fact if you look at the army lists on this page I found only a single one that didn't use a copied unit in his list at all and that was all the way back on Nov 23 by captnkaruthers.

think about it yourselves when's the last time you played a game against someone who didn't have cloned valkryie squads, or grey hunter squads or units in rhino's copied, or 2 exact units of blood crushers, or how many eldar lists have you seen where they have multiple war walker squads all kitted out the same, or even avenger units in wave serpents with the same load out., or how many marine armies run 2 dreadnaughts in the exact same way. I mean the list goes on and on. Or on the same note when's the last time your army didn't do that?

Now there's nothing wrong with doing this. it is all perfectly legal and such. but ask yourself one very important question

Is it fun?

do you like seeing units in someones army copied, like they fought against the dreaded xerox legion?

Personally i find it rather boring. there are tons of units in a codex and I don't mean any offense to anybody who does it, but I think it's a lack of tactical thought and flexibility. All those units in the books all do different things, usually fun and interesting things. I do understand the people who bring 8 units of beserkers all 8 man strong, theme and fluff selections are not what I'm getting at here but armies that people try to do well with at tournaments.

But why is everybody picking 2 units that are very obvious in how they work and copying them? Do they not want to exercise any thought in their games or do they want to just play a super simple game. Especially with the way new codex's are designed, there are so many ways you can go with some of the books and I just don't see people using it.

This is a serious question I don't mean to offend I'm just trying to understand why people are doing this. as the trend seems to be increasing more and more.

I mean after all all those units that people say suck, do have uses in them. Those units that people don't expect can do filthy things to people.

Think, and I mean really think about diversity in your armies, it gives you tactical flexiblity to deal with a wide range of missions and objectives, and also a wide range of armies and people with different schools of thought on the game. After all dust off those "terrible units" you know the ones I mean. the ones that people on the internet say are terrible.

Units like daemonettes, possessed, chaos dreadnaughts, vanguard, master of the forge, scorpions with biting blades, flash gitz, rough riders, guardsmen actually on foot, kroot, vespid, or even the daemonhunter list (on its own) or even failing that how about a marine squad with a different special weapon, I mean do they really all have to be identical?

This is my challenge to you try out some armies, not just a game or two, I mean really try out some new builds without copying a single unit. you'll be surprised how awesome that new thing you're trying out can really be. After all variety is the spice of life.

ooh a good post for number 100
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Postby Elthniar » Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:50 am

To sum it up, I think the "problem" lies in the competitive nature of a lot of the lists posted here. People are trying to find the "best" possible list using only the "best" possible units.

In a fun game, I wholeheartedly endorse your idea or plea or whatever. It is fun to use "bad" units sometimes. Variety is the spice of life.

Sometimes it can be competitive, too. My Championships list this year had one unit "photocopied" one time. So I had two identical units, and everything else was the same. It was not perfectly unique, but still competitive (I finished 18th in yellow, I believe).

All in all, I think the internet has been a bad thing for list building. I agree that you do not see many unique lists anymore. How many mech guard players did everyone see at Adepticon? Of my 11 games (Glad, TT, Champs), I faced mech guard 5 times and a guard hybrid once.

How many of these mech guard lists were "leafblower" lists essentially copied from the guy who won the 'Ard Boyz last year?

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love Adepticon and, as usual, had a fantastic time, but I have to admit I was a little disappointed in the army diversity. On that note, I have never met anybody who uses a list even remotely similar to mine. I have also never posted in online because I don't want anybody else to use it. It is not the best list ever, but it wins me games and I have fun playing it. I think my opponents like it too because it is not more of the same old stuff.

I know that in a competitive environment people like to optimize their lists and go for the best combination, spamming all the "good" units. This is completely fine for the competitive scene, obviously. But yes, I do think you have a good point and I think people should not hesitate to use some less common units they have lying around when they are playing a game for fun!
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Postby Depayen » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:20 am

There is another thought of army building that has taken over even though some people may not see it. 2 is more 1 is none. The reasoning behind this if I have 1 threat and you kill it it is gone nothing to worry about. Now if I have two or more and you kill one you still have several other to worry about and now better for me to deliver a world of hurt. If you split your attacks to destroy the units survivability is much better.
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Postby muwhe » Wed Apr 14, 2010 7:54 am

I was a little disappointed in the army diversity.


I think that is more a statement of the "State of the Game" at the moment. Over the 8 years of AdeptiCon The diversity level associated with army lists and army builds has run the full gambit.

Ditto on the WFB side.

Back in 3rd edition is was all Mech IG, Space Wolf and Beil-Tan Craftworld Eldar.

Anyone remember that "horrid" trend of everyone running 9 Oblits and the IW lists?

Nothing new here .. it's been this way for decades.


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Postby moonshadow13 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:19 am

As an eldar player that uses casters i tried to find ways to speed up my army as i am actully one of those players that plays multiple aspects and has very deversified army lists. I like to play everything, but it really slows things down

However, my opponents would constantly complain that i was slow and taking to long because i was doing too many different things and i am sure it was confussing to them to keep track of it all and i suffered in the sportmanship collumn for it.

As i stream lined units i found that having them all have the same setup when using 2 units that are the same (multiple dire avenger squads) it sped up the game and made things flow better and my sportmanship improved. I know if i ever play gladiator again i am going back to my multi mixed up army as there is no sportsmanship and after experiancing people stalling when i took out their hierophant in round 2 like i told him i would do i know i don't have to be nice anymore about it.

Now i feel what you are talking about with the carbon copied armies as i would play one army, just to face the almost exact duplicate army the next round. That happened to me in all 3 tournaments in adepticon. I think it helped me a little bit as i was fimilar with the set up and played against it alot better the second time, but it was annoying seeing the same thing over and over again. I mean how many people used the imperial set up with 2 valkyres and the psycer battle squads? after facing it twice in the championship tournament i got all excited when i found out my 3rd opponent was actually playing orcs. I faced it twice in the gladiator and i think 3 times in the team tournament.
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Postby Turtle » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:43 am

i'm not talking so much about army diversity among lists so much as I mean i bring 3 assault squads all with melta guns, you can bring an assault squad with meltas, a lascannon pred, and a dreaddy to do the same tank killing power and bam you now have list diversity, while retaining the redundancy to kill tanks

I don't think competitive armies need to have units copied to do well, it isn't something that you MUST do to win games, I think people copy units because they can't or don't use tactical thought in their games (not trying to offend people who do) its easy to run 4 units all the same way, its more challenging to use 4 different units with different load outs just as effectively against a wide range of opponents, I think it works better but its in the eye of the beholder


I do think the net has made some problems with people copy pasting army lists, just like people net deck in magic

moon also as an eldar player, in my army i don't use even a single unit tha'ts the same, and I don't run into those problems at all so I'm not sure what you're getting at. It might just be eing familiar with the stuff you have in your army and presenting it to your opponent in a good way
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Postby muwhe » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:56 am

My point Tony is it isn't new .. it's been going on for years.

Carbon copy las plas squads, everyone used to have 5 guys with a lascannon and 5 guys with a plasma rifle. You never saw meltaguns or flamers. The exact same Eldar Beil-Tan lists, the 15 Blood Claws piling out of Land Raiders. The old rhino rush armies .. all with Power Fists because a power sword blew. There was a time when I wondered if the vaunted Space Marine chapters .. had anymore power swords in the armory.

Nothing new .. it's part of the game and yes .. people posted pleas for folks to field power swords .. or mix it up .. and folks didn't because it wasn't the most efficent "build".

It's not a trend or something that has just happen in the last year or so .. is my point. It was very common in 3rd. 4th edition with the vast options available ..in some of the codexs .. you saw less of it.

But by design .. they are giving you less "options" for how you equip units again .. ( everything coming with standard with grenade, bolters, bolt pistols and ccw), and your going to get more carbon copy lists because of it.
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Postby Turtle » Wed Apr 14, 2010 9:58 am

lol that is true, but i see way way more of it nowadays and I'm just curious what has given rise to it, the internet, a style of play, or something else
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Postby moonshadow13 » Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:35 am

I found while having to explain it once speeds things up as alot of the time as my opponents tend to challenge everything and question everything i do.

I was not totally familair with some of my stuff intially as i kept adding new units and mixing it up further, but in doing so i had to explain everything because noone ever sees these units being played before. As i have been focusing on Eldar and getting the answers i need here it has helped alot, but still having to keep explainign things over and over again and for each different unit gets to be a little annoying.

It's like noone has ever heard of eldar before and so having my mixed armies (which i love, because like you i enjoy mixing it up) i have to explain every move and what everything does everytime i move it because my opponent just keeps asking me.

This is why i ask lots of questions on here so i can give them the quick "here is how it is and here is what it does" and get back to playing.

I plan to bring some more units that never get played to this up and coming tournament. Be it eldar or chaos, but i am always running into clarifaction problems and then i basically discuss them all here till i get a solid answer.

I again agree with you on the carbon copied no thought armies, but then again i look at it this way. When they bring that army again as i have seen it alot they are going to see something different from you and me everytime. Something like weapons that dont care if your missle tank is surrounded by troop carriers. I am still going to give it a auto hit with auto penatration and you can just sit back and hope i dont roll a weapon destroyed as i will take that missile launcher out so fast you head will spin.

We just have to change our armies around to specialize in killing it till they get tired of using the FOTM army setup. Who knows some day they might create their own set-up and be oringinal, but until then we will just keep being unique and doing our own thing.
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Postby Matthias » Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:28 am

I am sure the internet has played a role - simply in terms of the dissemination of information.

40K is much less regional than it was 10 or even 5 years ago and now with the everyone and their mother having a Blogspot account AND an opinion...much of the discourse concerning the game/hobby has simply turned into a shouting match between two very entrenched sides. People want to talk about what is 'good for the hobby', while at the same time doing everything they possible can to divide the people participating in it.

Army Lists don't kill the hobby, people kill the hobby.
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