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Weaken Resolve confusion

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 11:18 am
by TimSchmidt
Looking at your rulings I seem to see two different points.

IG.47D.02 -- Q: Does 'Weaken Resolve' affect units with the 'Stubborn' special rule when they are taking a morale test?
A: Yes, as „Weaken Resolve‟ is not defined as a „modifier‟, it is not ignored by the „Stubborn‟ special rule [clarification].
Ref: DH.27.02, NEC.17A.01, TYR.59B.01, WH.30B.02 IG.47D.03 --

OK so the power is not a modifier?

Q: If a unit is able to use a different Ld value via a special rule (such as with Ork‟s „Mob Rule‟ or Space Marine‟s „Rites of Battle‟), how does „Weaken Resolve‟ function in these situations?
A: „Weaken Resolve‟ continually affects the unit for the entire player turn, so even if the unit uses a Ld value from a different source, this new value is still reduced [clarification].

But its not a modifier so a different source would grant its full value.

Really confused by this. Please help clarify.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:15 pm
by n00bzilla99
I don't agree with the INAT ruling on this one. The Weaken Resolve power clearly states that:

"For the remainder of the turn, the enemy unit's Leadership is reduced by the number of Sanctioned Psykers in the unit utilising the power (to a minimum of 2)." Page 47 of the IG Codex.

How on earth is a reduction not a modifier? It specifically reduces the unit's morale for the remainder of the turn, it doesn't permanently change the leadership it, temporarily reduces it, which is a modifier, just like losing combat by 5 wounds, you're leadership stat for the duration of the test is reduced by -5 which is a modifier. The cases are the same, your leadership is modified by a number, the duration is the only difference.

Units with stubborn should ignore the effects of Weaken Resolve because it makes no mention of ignoring the effects of stubborn, or, for that matter, that it isn't a modifier. Clearly any effect that lowers or raises a basic stat (which is unmodified) makes it become a modified stat, and weaken resolve does just that, it changes the leadership stat, or in other words, it modifies it. And stubborn units ignore modifiers.

I disagree with the INAT ruling, but I doubt it will be changed, and I will abide by it when I play in the TT.

However, I am just as confused as Tim. If I am able to use a different leadership but get hit by the Weaken Resolve, I shouldn't have that leadership affected as well because the unit whose leadership I am using wasn't hit by the power and I am no longer using my modified leadership, but instead the unmodified leadership, say of a SM captain.

Example: SM Tactical squad gets hit by Weaken Resolve and has it's Ld reduced to 4 (from 9) and then must take a morale test. I have a commander with Ld 10 and "Rites of Battle" which states that I may use HIS leadership value for morale checks. So I use HIS unmodified leadership value of 10 because he was NOT hit by Weaken Resolve, so I test with my unit using Ld 10.

This is why we are confused, your rulings indicate that the power is not a modifier and at the same time it is. If it's a modifier, stubborn ignores it, if it's not, than it doesn't affect leadership and morale checks that are taken on the leadership of another model (such as a SM captain) and so we test at our leadership of 10 or 9, whichever the captain is.

I hope that adds some clarity to the post above, I am just as confused by your rulings. I also disagree that weaken resolve is not a modifier when it specifically states that "for the rest of the turn the leadership is reduced by the number of psykers in the unit using the power." Which is exactly what a modifier is.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:01 am
by yakface
There are effectively two questions being asked:


1) Why is Weaken Resolve not a modifier?

2) If weaken resolve lowers a unit's Leadership, then why wouldn't Leadership pulled from a different source (such as Rites of Battle) avoid the reduction from Weaken Resolve?



And the answers as they pertain to our rulings:


1) While Weaken Resolve most certainly lowers a unit's Leadership and yes this is technically a 'modification' of their Leadership, the rulebook (pg 43) actually defines 'Morale Check modifiers'. So simply saying that every single thing that alters the Leadership of a unit is a 'modifier' isn't necessarily correct.

Weaken Resolve isn't referred to as a modifier and isn't worded like any other leadership modifier. As such, we're treating the 'Weaken Resolve' effect as a reduction of the unit's Leadership rather than a 'modifier' as defined in the rules.


2) So if Weaken Resolve is a reduction to the unit's Leadership, why when using a Leadership value from another source isn't this penalty circumvented? The answer to this is recognizing that the UNIT'S leadership value has been lowered.

Unit's don't have a leadership value, only the models in the unit do...the only time a unit actually has a leadership value is when the unit has to take a Leadership test. At that point you check to see what the highest Ld value of the models in the unit and then that value is the unit's Leadership.

When a unit is able to utilize a Leadership value from a model outside of the unit, this process doesn't change. You still take the Leadership test using the unit's Leadership value, except in this case instead of pulling the Leadership value from the model in the unit with the highest Ld, you are allowed to utilize the Ld of a model outside of the unit.

But ultimately, that other model's Ld is still the UNIT'S Leadership for the test. And since Weaken Resolve continually lowers a unit's leadership value, even though a model from outside the unit is giving the unit it's Ld, this unit leadership value is still reduced.

This is an important fact to understand, because it applies to standard Ld modifiers as well. So even though a unit may use a Space Marine Commander Ld value as their 'unit' leadership, that leadership would still be reduced by any modifier, such as losing a close combat, etc, unless the Leadership value they're using says that it isn't modified (such as with the Witch Hunter's Book of St. Lucius).

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:12 am
by bluedevil27
That's a good explanation. Thanks yakface

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:30 am
by n00bzilla99
Yakface, Thanks for the reply.

I respectfully disagree with you here. I do not see how you can have a reduction in morale without it modifying the stat, considering this is the basic english definition of modification.

While Weaken Resolve most certainly lowers a unit's Leadership and yes this is technically a 'modification' of their Leadership, the rulebook (pg 43) actually defines 'Morale Check modifiers'. So simply saying that every single thing that alters the Leadership of a unit is a 'modifier' isn't necessarily correct.


What does the rulebook define a modifier as? I don't have it handy.

If it's not a modifier, then it will not affect units whose leadership is being used to take the check who weren't hit by the power, because it only affects the unit or models whichever way you want to put it, that were hit.


The answer to this is recognizing that the UNIT'S leadership value has been lowered.


Yes, so my SM tactical squad is hit by Weaken Resolve, therefore they now have leadership 4 lets say, this is fine, but the SM captain who was not hit by the power lets me use his Leadership (which was not affected by the power) so I use his full leadership.

When a unit is able to utilize a Leadership value from a model outside of the unit, this process doesn't change. You still take the Leadership test using the unit's Leadership value, except in this case instead of pulling the Leadership value from the model in the unit with the highest Ld, you are allowed to utilize the Ld of a model outside of the unit.


Yes and therefore you wouldn't have a penalty because the model outside of the unit wasn't hit by the Weaken Resolve and suffers no penalty to his leadership.

But ultimately, that other model's Ld is still the UNIT'S Leadership for the test. And since Weaken Resolve continually lowers a unit's leadership value, even though a model from outside the unit is giving the unit it's Ld, this unit leadership value is still reduced.


This right here, makes Weaken Resolve a modifier. But besides that, if I use another models leadership, I do not replace my leadership characteristic with his leadership skill. I simply am allowed to check using HIS leadership. I believe the SM captain's "Rites of Battle" literally states "SM squads that are required to take a leadership check may do so, using the leadership of the SM Captain." If this is the case then no, a SM captain would not be affected because literally they use the SM captain's Leadership, they do not make it their own leadership, and since the captain was unaffected, he lends his full leadership ability.

This is an important fact to understand, because it applies to standard Ld modifiers as well. So even though a unit may use a Space Marine Commander Ld value as their 'unit' leadership, that leadership would still be reduced by any modifier, such as losing a close combat, etc, unless the Leadership value they're using says that it isn't modified (such as with the Witch Hunter's Book of St. Lucius).


This is because they are modifiers. The process is that if your leadership is reduced (modified) and then you take a leadership check, regardless if you use another source, that leadership is hit by the modifier. Since you claim weaken resolve is not a modifier, then I do not see how, or why for that matter, it would affect units that were not hit by it.

The Psyker Battle Squad entry states that "The Unit suffers a reduction in leadership for the rest of the turn equal to the number of psykers in the squad."

Ok, the UNIT, which is made up of models, takes a leadership penalty equal to the number of psykers. Check. Well, my SM captain over there didn't get hit by the power, and now with his Rites of Battle, he gives his leadership to the unit when they take a test (so temporarily, not permanently) , which they now use instead of their own reduced leadership value. They literally replace their weakened leadership with his unmodified leadership using the Rites of Battle special rule, but only for the duration of the test.

Claiming that Weaken resolve is not a modifier but acts like one, is to me a little broken.

Psyker Battle Squads in Chimeras will be the new "thing" this year, and will only be helped out by this ruling that basically ignores the only ways to try to play around it. By being stubborn, or using a different leadership to avoid your own penalized leadership. It makes them incredibly unfair.

PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:08 pm
by YeezyMozart
Thats a great way to put that Yakface thanks for that, so now i can explain it better to people who might not understand.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 8:32 am
by moonshadow13
ABC Joe,

I have played against this army already and i admit it caught me off guard. Its quite effective as they use a inqusitor spell afterward to have you end up making a leadership test at 2+ on 2d6.

Then they literally follow your unit with a vehicle till it leaves the board. I did devise some ways to crush it and incorperated it into my adepticon armies. You are right in saying this will be seen alot. Having experianced first hand i plan to be ready for it this time around.

The simplist way to beat it is to field fearless troops who will auto pass any leadership check. As this caster setup goes well with mechanized units. So its basically pop the chimmera and smoke the casters inside.
They are real squishy so the main thing is to kill the vehicle and see how many survive.

I personnally thought it was a creative setup and appreciate the creativity of those who thought it up. Now if you can just get these rules mapped out as i am really intersted in this post.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:06 pm
by n00bzilla99
It's hard to get Fearless troops in some armies, and we were looking around and thought that stubborn would be an effective counter since they ignore negative modifiers, but apparently something that reduces your leadership isn't a modifier. :?:

However later on the INAT FAQ essentially rules that it is a modifier by making it affect leadership taken from an unaffected model (a SM captain with rites of battle), so the rulings contradict each other. This is why we are both confused.

I disagree with the INAT ruling because you can't have a modifier and have it not be one. This essentially makes Psyker battle squads absolutely dominant units.

Unless Yakface can prove to me somehow that you can have a power be a modifier but at the same time not be one, then I will continue to think otherwise.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:18 pm
by 00Enron
I disagree. I dont think they are dominating units. Most guard lists out there I have seen feature no PBS in them at all. In the AWC tourney series I think there was only a handful of times that these units made an appearance.

Counters to PBS:

Eldar ruins
Psychic hoods/Ruin Weapons


Kill the transport kill the guys inside. Heck you can even shake the vehicle and they cant fire unless they get out. If you cant manage that then you have bigger problems. Once the psykers are on the ground they are not to difficult to worry about.

PBS are also leadership nine so statistically they will fail it once a game.

There are many ways to counter this unit. They are not that bad as long as you are aware of what they can potentially do and take steps to mitigate it.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:28 pm
by moonshadow13
what is the range of the spell anyway? Is there i LOS Issue too where i can make a cover save? I don't have the book for them and i just saw it once where it says to target and modifiers i really didnt get to read into it.

All i know is what it does and what i need to do playing eldar to beat it. my ruins of warding didn't stop them in the least from trying to cast. they just kept on doing it and making the rolls with 3d6.

that combo power was pretty neat though and effective.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:07 pm
by n00bzilla99
No, there is no LOS issue moonshadow. The range is 36".

00Enron, by themselves they aren't, but used in the combos I have seen (where they use someone like the deceiver to make you run away) are pretty darn nasty, and these rulings make it hard for anyone whose not fearless to stay put when hit by the power.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:40 pm
by moonshadow13
I agree they are a vicous combo when used. I expect to see them played in the championship tournament on Sunday. I also agree with you as that sounds like a double standard as i have been reading this post. I guess it comes down to how they worded it.

I have seen many cases and arguments on the wording of certain abilities. Is the codex used for these pysers outdated? Again I believe it came from the daemon hunters codex if i am not mistaken. Using 5th edition rules with 3rd (or 4th) edition books tends to have conflicts.

You and i both know how badly i beat the dead horse that is the eldar codex. But at least we can come to an agreement everytime. This unique ability seems to defy even the rules that your SM codex rule should overide it. I have one myself and i agree with you totally on how your codex portrays the rules for making leadership tests.

Never the less i will keep watching this post as his explaination (yakface) covered the wording in the codex which if i am not mistaken is outdated. If you both used the rule the codex overrides the rule book then you are both right and wrong. I guess thats why it is left to the council guys to make the final descision good or bad. So that now we can at least put it aside and continue to play the game.

We don't have to like the rulings, but if we are going to play in a Adeptus sanctioned game we will have to play by them to take part in these events.

Still its good to argue the point just the same :) ..............................

I will be watching.................

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:02 pm
by bluedevil27
I don't see how Weakened Resolve is anymore powerful than Lash. In fact, I would think most people would think Lash is more powerful. People have figured out to deal with Lash, people should use similar strategies to deal with Weakened Resolve. And as weak as the PBS is, it should be much easier to neutralize.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:09 pm
by n00bzilla99
bluedevil27 wrote:I don't see how Weakened Resolve is anymore powerful than Lash. In fact, I would think most people would think Lash is more powerful. People have figured out to deal with Lash, people should use similar strategies to deal with Weakened Resolve. And as weak as the PBS is, it should be much easier to neutralize.


When your units flee in terror every time because they can't roll less than a 2 on their 2d6 roles and don't regroup being chased off the board (or if you want to be a cheesy git, you can use the deceiver to run full units off the board with them, I've already seen a doubles team like this) and the psyker squad is protected by a pretty cheap armored shell.

You can also use the PBS to pick off an enemy unit on the first turn by using the power on them then forcing a morale check any way you can. I put money on that they run off the board. Boom, you just lost your unit on the first turn. How awesome. :x

Lash doesn't claim to be a modifier but not, therefore ignoring stubborn and rites of battle.

PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:43 pm
by bluedevil27
ABC Joe - I get your points. Inat Faq classifies Weaken Resolve as both "not a modifier" yet it modifies leadership. Seems like a pretty big contradiction. I don't agree with everything in the Inat Faq - but for the most part, I understand the logic or the decision process on their eventual rulings.

I guess it will be something you will have to live with at Adepticon. As for combatting it, like the previous poster said, there are tons of anti-pyker options out there from Psykic Hoods to Runes of Warding. Also, if you are in a vehicle or behind a vehicle out of LOS, you cannot be targetted by Weakened Resolve.

Obviously there are some pretty nasty combinations out there that exploit the powers of weakened resolve. But there are just as many other nasty combos such as lash and jaws of the world wolf out there. You just have to learn how to minimize the damage of those potential combos.