Adepticon Gladiator question

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Postby Elthniar » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:36 pm

Blackmoor wrote:Ok, I understand now, the Gladiator is a game of who can buy and bring the biggest piece of Forgeworld.

I guess it has been that way for a while now with Fred winning with An'ggorth, Bill with a Trygon, and last year with the BoLS guys and their Reaver Titans.

I was laboring under the illusion that any well built 40k army has a chance at winning if it is well played.


Yep, you pretty much have it right. I think it has been that way since they started using Apocalypse rules instead of the old Imperial Armour rules. The IA rules were, for the most part, reasonable. With Apocalypse all the forgeworld units got way more powerful, and thus the winners of the gladiator have all had expensive shiny pieces of resin. Some people like this, some people don't, but nobody is forced to play in the Gladiator if they don't want to. I would be very surprised if someone won this year without a super heavy or gargantuan creature in their list.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:05 pm

Elthniar wrote:
AdeptusBrewCityJoe wrote:I can't remember for the life of me what makes the Heirophant so hard to kill? Is it like a High toughness like high wound model? Like T10 8W?


S10 T9 W10 A8 and it will have either a 2+/3+ or a 2+/6+ depending on what the judges decide whenever the FAQ is released.


Ah yes, that is pretty darn unstoppable. And even though it's worth a lot of points, its not like the rest of the Tyranid list will be easy to kill...

I don't dig the T9 10W part. Not in the least, but that's why I stay away from the Gladiator because it's literally just "Who can bring the best toys" and while I'm a competitive gamer whose heading down for the TT to kick some butt, I just don't have thousands of dollars to blow on FW stuff nor the time required to paint it all.

If the Gladiator was simply a 2500 tournament with an expanded FOC without superheavies, then I would participate. Because I wouldn't feel like not having a Titan would screw me.
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Postby Brian » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:20 pm

It's still 1250 points! Once you've paid the points for the bio-titan and your mandatory HQ and 2 troops you have very few points to work with. In other words, if you want to win with such a list you will have to play test the hell out of it.

I'm way more worried about the Gargantuan Nurgle daemon who weighs in at 777 points and fulfills the HQ requirement for the army. He's also 10 wounds at T9. He lacks the shooting power but he'll have WAY more stuff out there to support him. He also deploys like a daemon, naturally, so any funky gladiator-style deployment weirdness might not even affect him.
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Postby Blackmoor » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:23 pm

I have never been a fan of the Gladiator; it is just not my cup of tea.

I am playing in it this year because it is part of the qualification for the US team for the ETC and the fact that there is no other decent GW tournaments going on at the same time (The fantasy version of the Gladiator is not very good counter-programming).

What you say Fred is partly correct. The BoLS guys did playtest the heck out of Gladiator armies and they came to the conclusion that the Reaver was unstoppable as long as you could protect it from assault. The fact that they won, and that Reavers are now banned this year is proof that they should not have been let in for last year’s tournament. If the BoLS guys show up with 6 Hierophants, we well know what the most powerful unit is this year.

I will also say that none of the many armies I own can come close to killing a Heirophant. What I would do if I faced one is destroy all of my opponent’s troops and try to get as many other points that I can from the scenario, and play for the tie (depending on the scenario of course). That would stop the Heirophant from winning, and that would be proof to you that it is not over powered because he would not win the Gladiator, but then neither will I.
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Postby Blackmoor » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:31 pm

Brian wrote:It's still 1250 points! Once you've paid the points for the bio-titan and your mandatory HQ and 2 troops you have very few points to work with. In other words, if you want to win with such a list you will have to play test the hell out of it.

I'm way more worried about the Gargantuan Nurgle daemon who weighs in at 777 points and fulfills the HQ requirement for the army. He's also 10 wounds at T9. He lacks the shooting power but he'll have WAY more stuff out there to support him. He also deploys like a daemon, naturally, so any funky gladiator-style deployment weirdness might not even affect him.


I played Mike M. from Toledo last year who had the Nurgle Demon and it is impossible to kill too, but it has the same problem that An'ggorth has and that is that he doesn't really have any shooting attacks, and and at best can kill one unit a turn. Not that big of a deal. That shooting attack from the Heirophant and the huge charge range means that he can wipe out a whole army in a few turns.

And what some people are forgetting is that they have a new Tyranid codex too, so Gants are dirt cheap, and they have durrable HQs as well. You can build a respectible tyranid army with those 1000 points. You can have 120 gants and still have 400 points left over for your HQs.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:33 pm

Brian wrote:It's still 1250 points! Once you've paid the points for the bio-titan and your mandatory HQ and 2 troops you have very few points to work with. In other words, if you want to win with such a list you will have to play test the hell out of it.


A unit of 16 Stealers and a Hive Tyrant costs about 400 points or so. Tack on another and you've got about 560 points or so in your HQ and Troops. Now 1250 + 560 = 1810, that gives 700 points for other things in the list, and you can spam a lot of gaunts for very cheap and still have some other big nastys laying around.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:33 pm

Hank you should have answered those e-mails last year and you wouldn't have had the FW flyer debacle. The tabletop counters to the Hierophant have been neutered this year, but it hasn't. The new codex makes taking 150+ Gants a real possibility with the Hierophant. Elthanier if you can kill it on turn 2 or 3 I will say right now you are a liar. I'm not showing up Friday to see your false statement. I'll read about it the following week.

Hank the only thing that stopped these beasties when I was running the gladiator was the missions. Since that time the missions have gone weak and you get the Reaver/Flyer shannigans like last year. I don't mean to sound harsh, I know you guys are trying, but come on. We are shouting from the mountaintops on this one.

I'm not just some guy from Palatine. 5 Gladiator championships and 2 top 5 Ard Boyz finishes are telling you that in the right hands the Hierophant is unstoppable in this current meta environment. If you need to hope that the Slannnesh uber daemon can come down with Fateweaver nearby, then that isn't a hope.

All FW should have been out of the Gladiator and put in a seperate tourney called APOC. Leaving the FW stuff in will unbalance the lists and make the Gladiator the game of who can buy the expensive resin.
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:34 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:
All FW should have been out of the Gladiator and put in a seperate tourney called APOC. Leaving the FW stuff in will unbalance the lists and make the Gladiator the game of who can buy the expensive resin.


QFT. This is why I will likely not ever play in a Gladiator. I'd prefer it if it wasn't simply who brings the best Toys.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:41 pm

The guy who finished 2nd with a regular sm army didn't play against the reaver. Hello. The ard boyz is 9 rounds so the 'it's all about the matchups' doesn't pan out until the last round. It's unfortunate the Gladiator has devolved into a 'matchup' fest and not a tournament of skill. Game length and points size has something to do with this. In the beginning it was rare for someone to win all three games and not finish in 1st. Now it is commonplace. 2000pts and a 4-5 round tournament could have gone a long way to bringing it back. IMO. I guess the Gladiator now serves a different crowd. Godbless you boys and good luck next month.
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Postby Matthias » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:52 pm

1. The Gladiator tournament since day one has always been about the silly stuff. It never, ever, never, ever has been about the finding the best 40K player in the world. It is not the Olympics. It will never be held to those standards. As the hyper-competitive side of this hobby has become louder and louder, people constantly try to claim ownership of events like this and demand they should something they are not. Every year we search high and low for volunteers, event judges, coordinators...if you want the Olympics of 40K...then submit that event for 2011. There is obviously a place for it, but someone has to make it happen instead of yelling at the Gladiator, hoping it mutates.

2. Taking out the big stuff just makes it another 40K Championships without the painting/sportsmanship scores, and if that is the game you want to play, then go for Best General in the 40K Championships - exact same game. I know most people can't get beyond the Best Overall award, but Best General is raw Battle Points save the tiebreaker - and the exact event most people say they want the Gladiator to be. Only downside is 3 rounds...

3. Read the 2010 Model Policy. It was rewritten to specifically address those who 'whine' about the Gladiator being 'pay-to-play'. The old Forge World rules = Forge World models bit is gone, has been since the tickets went live this year.

4. No whining.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:53 pm

You know I might have been to harsh in my concerns. I'm sure there will be a mission in the Gladiator that rewards a balanced army list. It has always been the best way to make sure the over the top lists remain honest in their approach to the game. And if this is the case there is no reason Hank or anyone else should tell us. We leave it in their hands and trust they will do the right thing. My apologise Hank.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:55 pm

Matthias wrote:1. The Gladiator tournament since day one has always been about the silly stuff. It never, ever, never, ever has been about the finding the best 40K player in the world. It is not the Olympics. It will never be held to those standards. As the hyper-competitive side of this hobby has become louder and louder, people constantly try to claim ownership of events like this and demand they should something they are not. Every year we search high and low for volunteers, event judges, coordinators...if you want the Olympics of 40K...then submit that event for 2011. There is obviously a place for it, but someone has to make it happen instead of yelling at the Gladiator, hoping it mutates.

2. Taking out the big stuff just makes it another 40K Championships without the painting/sportsmanship scores, and if that is the game you want to play, then go for Best General in the 40K Championships - exact same game. I know most people can't get beyond the Best Overall award, but Best General is raw Battle Points save the tiebreaker - and the exact event most people say they want the Gladiator to be. Only downside is 3 rounds...

3. Read the 2010 Model Policy. It was rewritten to specifically address those who 'whine' about the Gladiator being 'pay-to-play'. The old Forge World rules = Forge World models bit is gone, has been since the tickets went live this year.

4. No whining.



If this is the case, wouldn't it have been eaier to call the event an Apoc event and allow the Apoc units/formations/assets which counter the Apoc GC's?
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Postby muwhe » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:00 pm

No apology needed Fred.

I think especially as AdeptiCon continues forward there is going to be room to develop some additional 40K formats to suit all tastes.

We have a real demand this year for alternate 40k gaming.. that is only going to continue in future years.

Scenarios are the great equalizer. : )

My money is on a standard codex list this year...
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Postby Elthniar » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:06 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote: Elthanier if you can kill it on turn 2 or 3 I will say right now you are a liar. I'm not showing up Friday to see your false statement. I'll read about it the following week.


You can call me many things, but please do not insult my honesty. I did not say that I can kill a Heirophant on turn 2 or 3 every single time I play it, only that in the 3 games I played against it, I got it turn 3, 2, and 3 again. If you don't think it is possible, you are entitled to your opinion, but at least show some respect. You don't even know me, and you are calling me a dishonest person, just because you personally don't think something is possible. I am always more than willing to have debates about what army list is good against what, but please keep it respectful and do not call me an outright liar.


Also, to everyone who is complaining about the Gladiator, I am not a huge fan of the format either. I don't think Apocalypse rules should ever be used in a competitive setting. I think a format more similar to 'Ard Boyz would be much better. But now is not the time to really be discussing this. Adepticon is less than 2 months away, and nothing is going to be changed. Let's have this discussion in April when plans are underway for Adepticon 2011.

Until then though, if you don't like the Gladiator's format, don't play in it, or at least don't complain about it. You will not see me complaining about some over powered unit that beat my list and caused me to lose if (more likely, when) this happens. I understand the rules for the Gladiator, and I am going in knowing what to expect. I don't necessarily agree with all the rules for this event, but I respect them and will adhere to them. And the number one rule is no whining. Again, no one is forcing anybody to play in the Gladiator. It is your choice to willingly sign up, or to do something else on Friday.
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Postby Matthias » Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:10 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:If this is the case, wouldn't it have been eaier to call the event an Apoc event and allow the Apoc units/formations/assets which counter the Apoc GC's?


Aside from this event having the title of Gladiator since it was first conceived, which was well before Apocalypse was even a glimmer in GW's eye...

...but I have no problem with reevaluating the the state of Friday Night 40K. Combat Patrol has been a huge success as people seek an alternative to the Gladiator. All the other 40K events have grown by leaps and bounds, and while I have no doubts that the Gladiator will have a full house, the demand for this event has definitely leveled off over the years.

We are open to suggestions - always, but this sort of stuff needed to be discussed 6-9 months ago and requires a volunteer to champion it. 2010 is right around the corner.
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