Adepticon Gladiator question

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Adepticon Gladiator question

Postby Blackmoor » Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:53 pm

Since there is nothing that can kill a Heirophant bio-titian, can we have the "Screw the big ones" mission first so the other people who might have a shot at winning will not have to deal with this monstrosity?
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Postby Blackmoor » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:56 am

After thinking about it, I think the "Screw the big ones" mission should be on rounds #2 or #3.

If it was on the first round they might be matched up against a newbie, and they could still easily win. It is best to do it in the later rounds so that it will be against a good player who can take the most advantage of it.

I guess it is just bad luck of the draw if you get matched up against one of them in the early rounds because the monster is unstoppable.
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Postby Elthniar » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:13 am

Unless you know something I don't, the decision hasn't yet been made regarding the heirophant.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:33 am

What decision about the Hierophant? According to the rules posted it is in. The only question would be does it;s warp field work like the new warp field. People want to know because that would make this powerful unit over the top with a 2+/3+.

With the new Bug codex and elimination of the Reaver, the Hierophant has reached critical mass on the tabletop. If you are going to make changes to it, then I suggest making them quickly. The event is less than 2 months away and if people are going to order one from FW they had better do it now. To change the rules after an order is placed would leave a bad taste in the mouth (to put it nicely).

I suspect no changes will be made and the only way to keep the Hierophant in check would be to bring back the old 'screw the big ones' mission we used to have. I mean a really screw the big ones scenario, not 'make the Baneblade uncomfortable' mission from last year.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun Feb 07, 2010 11:39 am

Here's a suggestion for a scenario.

Incorporate a low orbit pulse cannon. From turn 2 on, a player may skip their movement and shooting phase to fire the pulse cannon. Nominate one unit on the table and roll a die. One a 3+ the unit is hit. Any vehicle takes an automatic penetrating hit with a +1 to the damge roll. No shields or cover saves allowed. One unit will suffer 2d6 wounds with no saves of any kind allowed.

There you go. A nice screw the big ones scenario to incorporate into the game. You will need to effectively skip your turn to do it and it's not a sure thing, but you can bring down anything in one turn with this rule.
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Postby Blackmoor » Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:55 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:What decision about the Hierophant? According to the rules posted it is in. The only question would be does it;s warp field work like the new warp field. People want to know because that would make this powerful unit over the top with a 2+/3+.


The funny thing it that the Hierophant is unkillable even without the 3+ Inv save.

The only thing that might kill one is one of the giant demons.
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no worries

Postby Spacecurves » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:06 pm

Guys, the event organizers have said explicitly the heirophant will be mentioned in the apocalypse FAQ. They said "and yes, it (the FAQ) will address all those heirophant questions!"



I'm sure it will keep its old 6+ invul save. It is a great unit, but it is not broken by any means if that ruling is made. It can be killed just fine, and is a great counter in the meta game to warhound titans. (who will probably be a snack for it)
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Re: no worries

Postby Blackmoor » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:59 pm

Spacecurves wrote:I'm sure it will keep its old 6+ invul save. It is a great unit, but it is not broken by any means if that ruling is made. It can be killed just fine, and is a great counter in the meta game to warhound titans. (who will probably be a snack for it)


Not broken? Then how do you kill it?
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Postby n00bzilla99 » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:08 pm

I can't remember for the life of me what makes the Heirophant so hard to kill? Is it like a High toughness like high wound model? Like T10 8W?
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Postby Elthniar » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:30 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:What decision about the Hierophant?


I was talking about the decision on Warp Field, like you mentioned, not on whether it is allowed or not.

Blackmoor wrote:The funny thing it that the Hierophant is unkillable even without the 3+ Inv save.

The only thing that might kill one is one of the giant demons.


Not true. Just bring enough AP 1 and AP 2 weaponry, and focus your firepower on it.

Spacecurves wrote:Guys, the event organizers have said explicitly the heirophant will be mentioned in the apocalypse FAQ. They said "and yes, it (the FAQ) will address all those heirophant questions!"


I'm sure it will keep its old 6+ invul save.


They also said no fundamental changes would be made after 2/1/2010, so we will see what happens.

AdeptusBrewCityJoe wrote:I can't remember for the life of me what makes the Heirophant so hard to kill? Is it like a High toughness like high wound model? Like T10 8W?


S10 T9 W10 A8 and it will have either a 2+/3+ or a 2+/6+ depending on what the judges decide whenever the FAQ is released.
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Postby Blackmoor » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:31 pm

It is toughness 9 with 10 wounds, 2+/6+ save and regenerates, and because it is a gigantic creature it is immune to almost everything you think can kill it.

It can shoot 16 shots at 48" at strength 10, AP 3. In assault it has 6/8 attacks with strength 10 and has a huge charge range.

Let's do the math:
36 Lascannons at BS 4 will do 10 wounds to it. How many armies have 36 lascannons? So if you have 10 lascannons (which is about 6 more than I have seen on a long time) you will kill it in 4 turns and that is if it does not regenerate and destroy everything that has a lascannon.

10 Fire Dragons will do 1.85 wounds to it.

It would take around 70 Meltaguns at BS 3 to take one down.
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Postby Blackmoor » Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:40 pm

Elthniar wrote:
Blackmoor wrote:The funny thing it that the Hierophant is unkillable even without the 3+ Inv save.

The only thing that might kill one is one of the giant demons.


Not true. Just bring enough AP 1 and AP 2 weaponry, and focus your firepower on it.


Can you give me an example of an army that can kill it without using something from forgeworld?

And don't use a lame cop out like "Take a lot of AP2 weapons". As I showed above it will take a lot more than "focus fire" to take one down.

Show me an army that will not get shot to pieces by the Heirophant, can fight it's way through 100 gants, and a couple other TMC and kill the Heirophant.
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Postby Elthniar » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:01 pm

Blackmoor wrote:Can you give me an example of an army that can kill it without using something from forgeworld?

And don't use a lame cop out like "Take a lot of AP2 weapons". As I showed above it will take a lot more than "focus fire" to take one down.

Show me an army that will not get shot to pieces by the Heirophant, can fight it's way through 100 gants, and a couple other TMC and kill the Heirophant.


I would be more than happy to meet you at Adepticon and show you my list, which I played 3 games against a Heirophant and killed it on turns 3, 2, and 3, respectively. And yes, it also dealt with 120 gants, a trygon, and some other things (all 3 heirophant lists were different). I will note, however, that I used the old Warp Field rule with a 6+ invul. With a 3+ I would obviously have a much harder time with it. Also, there may be a certain list with a Heirophant that can and will beat mine. I only play tested against 3 lists.

And yes, I have a forgeworld unit, but it is one of the less expensive (points wise) ones. Can I make a list without it that will kill the Heirophant? Maybe. To be honest, I haven't really tried, because as this is for the Gladiator I am allowed to use one forgeworld goody and I am choosing to. Apocalypse rules tend to not work well unless both players have an equal number of Apocalypse units. There is a reason the rules for Apoc were made for 3000+ points games. Using them in 2250 leads to a lot of overpowered lists, but that is why they call it the Gladiator and that is why the number one rule is "No Whining". There is going to be a unit
(or two) that really just rise to the top of the field in the meta game world. I understand there are people out there who do not own any forgeworld, and that is fine, but the truth of the matter is, with the current ruleset used in Gladiator, those who bring forgeworld are at an advantage to those who do not. Perhaps there will be a good "screw the big ones" mission this year and that will even out the field a little bit, but I am not counting on one. I personally tried to make a list that could handle what I think will be the most powerful lists at the Gladiator this year.

So again, if you want to see my list let's meet up at Adepticon Friday night and we can talk about how it did in the Gladiator. I don't like posting my army lists on the internet. Maybe it won't turn out to be as good as I think it is, maybe I got lucky with my play tests, or maybe there is an army out there that I simply can't beat and I will go against it in one of the rounds. I am not saying I will win the Gladiator. But I am saying that if my opponent puts down a Heirophant, I won't be too scared of it. This is all assuming a 6+ invulnerable save, of course.
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Postby Blackmoor » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:24 pm

Ok, I understand now, the Gladiator is a game of who can buy and bring the biggest piece of Forgeworld.

I guess it has been that way for a while now with Fred winning with An'ggorth, Bill with a Trygon, and last year with the BoLS guys and their Reaver Titans.

I was laboring under the illusion that any well built 40k army has a chance at winning if it is well played.
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Postby muwhe » Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:34 pm

The last update to the FAQ will be posted on Monday and contains the IA update...

Unstoppable?

Ok rant time and this isn't directed at you Blackmoor.

I have stayed quiet about this subject.

Every year I get emails and calls from dozens of people that think they have the beat all kill all lists. I hear about unstoppable team army concepts, auto-win gladiator builds, broken units etc.. The "reaver" build was one among many last year .. that was auto win for the Gladiator.

The result .. most the time 99% of those people are disappointed.

If we banned every unit someone claimed was unstoppable.. it would be a never ending cycle.

So right now I got about 12+ folks that think they got the Gladiator wrapped up and 8+ teams that already think they got their name on the 1st place overall trophy.

So I am sure 1 of them MIGHT win...and of course we will hear about the "well we told them we had these unstoppable forces " comments.. and the internet community will cry out. Course it might be that none of them win... which in that case you will absolutely hear nothing about it...

The reality is someone has to win..

As for last years Gladiator what folks hardly bring up is BOLS playtested the hell out of those lists last year. They went through multiple versions from concept to what they ended up playing. Played a large number of games and tested them verse "other killer" builds. So when it came time to play for real.. they already had an idea of how deal with some of the contenders. They hands down ... accounted for some of the most prepared players in the field that year. Frankly .. that accounts for a lot come the big show.

*NewsFlashes*
1. Lists existed in the field last year that would have beat the Reaver list.
2. Half a dozen other Reaver builds didn't win.
3. The guy that finished second in the Gladiator .. I believe had a pretty Plain Jane Space Marine army. Unthinkable!!
4. Lists exist that can deal with the Heirophant in 2011. With or Without FW units.
5. It's matchups and dice rolls.

Also let's be clear... as I think some folks have a misunderstanding about what the Gladiator is about....

It's about entertainment. It's about fielding whatever you want to field, putting it on the table and having fun ... free of whining and soft score complaints ... It is definitely not about "crowning" the greatest 40K player ever...as that would be pointless contest .. because he's no longer playing .. :D
Last edited by muwhe on Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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