Valk / Vendetta Basing

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Valk / Vendetta Basing

Postby themacdiesel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 3:01 pm

Hello,

At a recent, local tourney, a player was "disqualified" from the tournament for having cut his Valk bases down from the ridiculous height they are "stock" to 2-3" tall.

Having done something similar, as I can't stand tipping over my models (which I am prone to do because I am clumsy) I thought it worth asking -- for Adepticon does a Valk / Vendetta have to be run on the enormous plastic stalk from G/W unmodified, or can it be run on a shortened stalk?

Traditional skimmer bases have four different height stands, so I've always thought stand height was "for show, not for go," but I'd hate to show up in Chicago and be overruled!

Thanks,
Sean
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Postby Cptn_Snuggles » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:17 pm

I'd leave it on the current one if at all possible. The FAQ has taken into account the base (allowing for models to go under the valk as long as they don't touch the base).

That would suck to be disqualified - sort of harsh. At the same time, one of the basic rules is to use the base size that came with the model.

Cheers,
BC
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Postby Green Blow Fly » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:37 pm

I think the DQ was justified.

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Postby Elthniar » Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:55 pm

I would definitely use the provided base. While this base is obscenely over-sized, the rules should be followed to the letter and therefore you should have to use the bases provided with the model. If one exception is made, then people will expect other exceptions to be made, and then we are getting into the realm of modeling things in ways to take advantage of the rules system, which is against the spirit of the game.
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Postby Green Blow Fly » Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:26 pm

It is great to see rules enforced. I have seen some people saying they want to cut down the wings and tail.

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Postby themacdiesel » Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:59 pm

Cptn_Snuggles wrote:I'd leave it on the current one if at all possible. The FAQ has taken into account the base (allowing for models to go under the valk as long as they don't touch the base).


Good point -- having cut 1 - 1.5" off of each stalk, models can still fit under the wings/tail. This isn't a "modeling for advantage" exercise, it's a visual exercise/stability exercise [ie, really, every Valk is going to hover X feet off the ground?]

Appreciate the comments -- much more positive tone than the 7 page tirade I found over on WarSeer on the subject after I had posted this -- look forward to hearing from the judges.
Last edited by themacdiesel on Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Elthniar » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:34 pm

This isn't a "modeling for advantage" exercise, it's a visual exercise/stability exercise [ie, really, every Valk is going to hover X feet off the ground?


Just to clarify, I wouldn't consider this as being a modelling for advantage tactic. I do think the valk base is ridiculous. My only point is I don't think there should be an exception to the rules on this. And if there was, there would be some players who would be sure to take advantage of it. I would never do such a thing (in fact, I use a forge world Avatar in my army, which has the distinct disadvantage of being twice as big as the normal one) but there are people out there who would try and make their valk bases as low as physically possible to gain a gaming advantage if this were allowed.
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Postby crashwell » Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:49 pm

For what it's worth, here's the INAT addressing the issue:

GEN.01 – Q: Can players convert their models in order to gain an advantage in the game? For example, making tiny models to hide behind scenery, longer barrels on their vehicles to increase the range of their weapons, using shorter/taller flying bases for their models then those supplied, etc?

A: Players may only convert their models for aesthetic purposes. Any players, in the opinion of the Tournament organizers/judges, who have converted their models specifically to gain a gameplay advantage, may be penalized at the whim of the Tournament Organizer. These penalties can be as little as playing the game acting as if the suspect model is the proper dimensions, all the way up to immediate ejection from the tournament [clarification]. When in doubt, always check with the tournament organizer before the tournament begins and then discuss the issue again with each of your opponents before the game starts.
Ref: RB.22A.02


Long story short, If you alter the actual profile/elevation of a model by using a non-standard base or "flight stem", someone will call shenanigans on you and turn a deaf ear to your justifications about "stability" or the like. And, unfortunately, the judges will often have to side (rules-wise) with the player making the complaint.

The "modeling for advantage" rules are a bulwark to keep the unscrupulous players from seizing any advantage they can come up with to win games. The regrettable side-effect is that honest players lose latitude when converting and modeling for creativity.

We had many long conversations about the Valk while the INAT was being updated. As one of the rules judges for Friday's Galdiator and Sunday's Championships, - to keep an already complex model (ruleswise) as simple as (laughably) possible - I highly recommend using the base and flight stem that the model comes with.

That being said, the following people have the knowledge and authority to allow something that is "borderline" in their event(s):

Greg Sparks/Bill Kim - 40K Gladiator organizers
Chris Mehrstedt/Matt Weeks - 40K Team Tournament organizers
Joe Adams - 40K Championships organizer
Hank Edley/Jeff Chua/Matt Weeks - Adepticon Masterminds.

Seeing as how we were all on the same INAT conference calls I feel safe in thinking that they would hold near-identical opinions. However, if you feel your model is close enough to warrant in individual look-see, make contact through the adepticon.org site.

Hopefully this helps!
Be well,

Dave
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Postby Green Blow Fly » Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:26 pm

Fuck Hank is a mastermind now!!!



:D :D :D
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Postby themacdiesel » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:04 pm

Dave,

Thanks for quoting that ruling, had not happened upon it in my read of the INAT -- extremely helpful.

These penalties can be as little as playing the game acting as if the suspect model is the proper dimensions


I would always be willing to hold the model at its "proper height" if questioned... just like all the local Eldar/Tau players who are kind enough to lift their models a few inches to gauge line of site to/from their skimmers. May be a bit "house rules-ey" but it works.

crashwell wrote:The regrettable side-effect is that honest players lose latitude when converting and modeling for creativity.


Yeah, that is a real issue in the tournament side of the community. Regrettable, as you say, but I understand where you -- as Tourney Organizers -- are coming from, and respect it for competitive play.

crashwell wrote:I highly recommend using the base and flight stem that the model comes with.


Looks like I'll be scouring eBay for a few stems to use just for tournaments. Neat.

Again -- thank you for the clarification, Dave. Nice to know these things far enough out to make a course correction with relatively little pain!

Best for the Holidays!
--Sean--
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Postby jon.wolf » Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:09 pm

GW sells the stems now, as bits, for $10.
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Postby TheRagingRodian » Thu Dec 24, 2009 12:27 pm

Unfortunately if you officially give people any leeway in their bases that is going to be abused far more than it will be used just for the coolness factor.
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