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AdeptiCon 2010 will be held March 26th-28th, 2010 at the Westin Lombard Yorktown Center in Lombard, IL. Visit the AdeptiCon website (www.adepticon.org) and start planning today!

Postby darkwynn » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:10 pm

NP Steve.

So many forgeworld models out there anyways to remember what they are all and what they do. Its still a good idea for people to check and double check the list that are coming in.


The big thing I am actually worried about is people trying to play with the manticore trying to use the forgeworld rules instead of the IG codex ones. Mainly, because Army builder makes you use the Manticore from IA which is cheaper and stronger.
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Postby Marius Xerxes » Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:47 pm

Green Blow Fly wrote:I think that all lists should be checked and approved ahead of time for 2010.

G


Then have staffing on hand to make sure what was sent in the mail ahead of time, wasnt changed to something different at the table.

And do all of this before game 1 starts.

Not to mention there are players who work ferverishly to get models painted and modeled in time for A-Con. Several who work on the models in their hotel rooms completing them only hours before the event starts.

If someone didnt get certian models finished, but had other selections as backup, I dont find it fair to them to force them to play with a under pointed army because they wernt able to complete work on what they wanted. Especially when they have other finished units ready to go.
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Postby Elthniar » Wed Dec 30, 2009 2:21 am

This also becomes fairly unfeasible in a tournament with 100+ players. I think it is too much to ask to have the organizers check through every list.

Everyone should just abide by gamer code and bring a legal list. Those who choose to try and cheat the system will most likely be caught. That is part of the reason that we show each other our army lists before the game begins!
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Postby Redbeard » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:36 am

I disagree. You have a staff at these events specifically to check legality. Many gamers aren't going to know the legalities involved in every codex, let alone the point costs.

I could produce army lists that looked 100% like valid ArmyBuilder printouts, but that, in fact, snuck a few hundred extra points into my army. If I'm playing a less-common army, like Dark Eldar or WitchHunters, who is going to catch this? I can do this in several different ways, no-less. Between editing the HTML output, or tweaking the AB datafiles, if I shave a point off every DE Warrior in my army, would you catch it?

We share army lists so that we know what we're facing. I don't do the math on my opponent's lists, and I don't think I've ever seen an opponent do the math on a list I've handed them in over 100 tournament games. It's an unrealistic expectation, doubly-so with the time we have for games.

On the other hand, a tournament organizer can be devoted to the task of entering every list into a validated copy of army builder, and making sure that everything is legit. It's not hard to do this given the several hours that the players will be playing.

Yeah, we should all bring legal lists, gamer code, etc. This doesn't happen though. Someone will always try to cheat. This can be due to ignorance (last year, several people who brought FW Daemon Lords were not aware of the requirement that a daemon lord be accompanied at least one unit of troops from the same god, as this requirement was only added on an errata page - the same page that made them legal for daemon armies), due to wanting to hide an issue (last year, one gamer in the team tournament left one of his rhinos home. He borrowed one for the gaming, but hid it during the paint judging), or due to simply outright cheating (as is the case with any number of people who get caught with loaded dice). It happens, so it needs to be resolved, ideally by those running the events.
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Postby Elthniar » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:55 am

Redbeard,

You bring up excellent points, many of which I had not thought of. I am personally familiar with just about all the Codices, and before games I do a rough mental calculation to make sure everything is legit. But, I am sure most players do not do that, as you point out.

If one of the organizers is willing to check all the army lists, I think this would be the best route to take. I also think, and have thought before, that you should be present during the paint judging of your army, or at least be required to leave an army list with it if you leave for any reason. I have known of people who hid certain models to avoid them being paint judged.

Having an organizer check through the lists throughout the day would make players more accountable to bring legal lists. I don't think they should be checked before Adepticon, due to the points brought up by Marius Xerxes, but checking them throughout the length of the day doesn't seem too unreasonable. At the very least, anyone who wins an award should have their list checked.
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Thu Dec 31, 2009 10:31 am

I will point out that we actually finalized our team tournament lists on Friday night after the Gladiator last year.
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Postby Jay_DaBoyz » Thu Dec 31, 2009 12:34 pm

Inquisitor_Malice wrote:I will point out that we actually finalized our team tournament lists on Friday night after the Gladiator last year.



Good to know. This year we take you out and get you good and drunk after the gladiator. Maybe even leave one of your partners at the bar :D :D
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Thu Dec 31, 2009 7:17 pm

Oh - we won't have that problem this year. We just finalized our lists. So drink away. :)
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Postby Janthkin » Mon Feb 08, 2010 5:46 pm

Redbeard wrote:I disagree. You have a staff at these events specifically to check legality. Many gamers aren't going to know the legalities involved in every codex, let alone the point costs.

I could produce army lists that looked 100% like valid ArmyBuilder printouts, but that, in fact, snuck a few hundred extra points into my army. If I'm playing a less-common army, like Dark Eldar or WitchHunters, who is going to catch this? I can do this in several different ways, no-less. Between editing the HTML output, or tweaking the AB datafiles, if I shave a point off every DE Warrior in my army, would you catch it?

We share army lists so that we know what we're facing. I don't do the math on my opponent's lists, and I don't think I've ever seen an opponent do the math on a list I've handed them in over 100 tournament games. It's an unrealistic expectation, doubly-so with the time we have for games.

Given that you have to give copies of your army list to every opponent, it would only take one guy double-checking during or after the game, and then the cheater is looking at a lifetime ban from Adepticon. The closer to the head table one gets, the more likely this is to occur; failing that, whoever manages to win, you can bet the list will be plastered all over the interwebs. And then, again, the cheater is looking at a lifetime ban from Adepticon.

It's never happened to me (that I know of). But the general stance of the organizers definitely seems to be "We'll trust you, but if you get caught, the penalty is going to be extremely harsh." Strangely enough, it's the same position the US legal system [has | is supposed to have].

The organizers do a phenomenal job. I wouldn't dare ask them to take on any additional tasks, particularly one that I can handle myself by just asking "May I see your codex, while you're moving? I'm not familiar with some of these units on your army list...."
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Postby CaptKaruthors » Tue Feb 09, 2010 3:45 pm

The big thing I am actually worried about is people trying to play with the manticore trying to use the forgeworld rules instead of the IG codex ones. Mainly, because Army builder makes you use the Manticore from IA which is cheaper and stronger.


IA APOC 2 has revised the Manticore entry. You can basically field it as normal, or purchase different missiles for it. Costs are different depending on the loadout. However, if you buy storm eagle rockets for it...it is identical to the codex entry in every way.
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