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AdeptiCon 2010 will be held March 26th-28th, 2010 at the Westin Lombard Yorktown Center in Lombard, IL. Visit the AdeptiCon website (www.adepticon.org) and start planning today!

Postby old coast » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:06 am

Huoshini wrote:Good lord. That is a wierd set-up.

Chaos loses 600 is you bring a hellcannon. So the ONLY real artillery in the chaos book gets you dinged?


Yeah but you get double points for blocks of Warriors, Marauders and Chosen..once you understand WPS you'll get the hang of it...it's about bringing balanced armies..if you want the Hellcannon you need to bring an Army along with it, not the Hellcannon and a bunch of other monsters

Also note they aren't enforcing a minimum WPS score many events say you need a to score a 10,12,15 etc to enter..here you can bring a "0" and still play...you're going to take a 25 point Comp hit...butyou can bring what you want. I sure there will be people bringing "0" lists then bidding 5 Battle Points a round and trying to compensate for the comp hit. It's going to be interesting.
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Postby Lordgoober » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:03 pm

It was also used at Midwest Rampage and was fairly successful there.

lets take a couple examples here for my dwarves. For Core Competency I'm running something like this.

Josef Bugman: note, he's a special character but if I didn't want to run him as a special character I could rebuild him as a normal thane and runes on the longbeard rangers for about the same points.

Bartender of Doom: Anvil Runelord with 2 runes on him, this is one of the wimpiest anvils ever.

naked Dragonslayer.

20 Bugman Rangers: Longbeard Rangers with all the trimmings.
20 Warriors with GW, shield and FC.
2 x 20 Quarrelers FC with GWs and shields. One unit is a ranger unit (the bugman rangers don't count towards the 0-1. I would sacrifice the ranger ability on the quarreler block if not running bugman as bugman)
20 slayers, 2 of them giant slayers
1 stone thrower with runes.

This list works out to a 19.6 on the WPS score after the division by 200. In practice, the list has been utterly trashed in all 7 games it's played.

Now we come to my potential Adepticon list. Note that this originally comped somewhere in the low 20s before. The is a new version of the WPS that literally came out late last week and I'm recounting this right now. Now if you know me in practice, you know that the Anvil in the core comp list is a complete anomaly for me. I like doing fighty dwarves and not gunlines.

It has a BSB, Runesmith, Dragon slayer, 2 x 10 crossbows, 1 x 24 warriors FC, 1 x 20 slayers FC with 2 giant slayers, 1 x 20 hammerers FC with some runes, 2 Gyros and 2 stone throwers. This list comps out at 22.74. We'll see how it works in practice.

The WPS system definitely makes you think about your choices. For me most of the time I'm running fairly high scores because I don't like to run gunline overly magicy lists anyway.



Secondary note: For the WoC, the Hellcannon penalty is for each Hellcannon BEYOND the first. The first Hellcannon doesn't give any penalties.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:48 pm

Lordgoober wrote:19.6 on the WPS score after the division by 200. In practice, the list has been utterly trashed in all 7 games it's played.


I think this is the problem with comp, in general. I don't really follow Fantasy all that much, but if you're more concerned with getting comp points and not in actually fielding an army that can win games, what's the point of playing? Just have an army design contest.
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Postby old coast » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:04 pm

Its a fine line...trying to score extra WPS points like Rob above for comp purposes in the end isnt going to do you much good. As I mentioned since there is only a "0" minimum WPS to play..you should not really build a list higher than say 15 or so ("15" is the 3K WPS baseline) at 15 you can build most standard competitive lists that get played in a Comp environment.
trying to score a '25' just isnt worth the pain you'll take on the table.

What WPS does is keep players from bringing ridiculously OTT armies to the table we are talking various DoC stupidity, VC deathstars , the DE Monster Mash, Lizard Steggie Spam, etc..etc...all that stuff is gone or seriously neutered with this format.
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Postby Lordgoober » Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:28 pm

Here's the thing for me. I don't even think about the WPS score when I build the list, I only look at that if it matters after the list is built.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:30 pm

old coast wrote:What WPS does is keep players from bringing ridiculously OTT armies to the table we are talking various DoC stupidity, VC deathstars , the DE Monster Mash, Lizard Steggie Spam, etc..etc...all that stuff is gone or seriously neutered with this format.



What if you're a player who is relatively new to the game, bought a codex, say, Daemons, because you like the models (or, because you also want to play 40k), and get told that you're a bad person if you want to play a greater daemon...
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Postby Dave Bednarek » Wed Nov 11, 2009 6:47 pm

Redbeard wrote:
old coast wrote:What WPS does is keep players from bringing ridiculously OTT armies to the table we are talking various DoC stupidity, VC deathstars , the DE Monster Mash, Lizard Steggie Spam, etc..etc...all that stuff is gone or seriously neutered with this format.



What if you're a player who is relatively new to the game, bought a codex, say, Daemons, because you like the models (or, because you also want to play 40k), and get told that you're a bad person if you want to play a greater daemon...


You still can, it's just that you can't take as many "toys" in the rest of the army to go with him. WPS does NOT prohibit you from taking anything you want to. Like someone so correctly posted earlier, WPS limits the number of really ugly lists that can now be built.

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Postby Lordgoober » Wed Nov 11, 2009 7:32 pm

It's something like that that really almost drove me out of WFB when I first started the game back in late 2005 and early 2006. I started with Empire (late 6e) and ended up picking up a Steam Tank because the model looked darn cool. I ended up playing in my first GT style tournament shortly thereafter (Quake City Rumble II) and in their army construction rules they said that the steam tank was legal so I said, oh cool. I get a chance to try a model I've never used before. I was new to WFB at that point and thus was clueless to comp type things and made a list I thought was cool. Lists for said indy GT were submitted 2 weeks before and were fixed at that point. They did a 5 judge comp system with each judge giving a 0-3 point score and the initial judge comp was the basis for first round pairings and my list was apparently broken enough that they paired me up with a 12 model tzeentchian flying circus.

The op's list. Level 4 Sorc on Dragon with Staff of Change + Golden Eye of Tzeentch. 4 Tzeentch Flying Chariots, 5 Chosen Knights and 2 Dragon Ogre Shaggoths.

That and a few other things that happened that weekend almost drove me out of WFB and pretty much have me predisposed to playing more fluffy lists as compared to beatstick brutal lists.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed Nov 11, 2009 8:43 pm

Lordgoober wrote:... Lists for said indy GT were submitted 2 weeks before and were fixed at that point. They did a 5 judge comp system with each judge giving a 0-3 point score and the initial judge comp was the basis for first round pairings and my list was apparently broken enough that they paired me up with a 12 model tzeentchian flying circus.
...
That and a few other things that happened that weekend almost drove me out of WFB and pretty much have me predisposed to playing more fluffy lists as compared to beatstick brutal lists.


This is what is wrong with any comp system.

These games are so complex that there is no way that lists will ever be balanced. A comp system doesn't make the game better, what it does it make the game different. I don't know Fantasy nearly well enough to pick details out of this specific system, however, if someone was so inclined to do so, I'm sure they'd find an ideal setup that was as abusive as possible under the comp rules, while still getting as many comp points as possible.

In essence, you're not removing broken lists (or units) from the game, you're simply changing the definition of what the broken lists are.

Rather than do that, why not just play the game the way it's written? Sure, there will be some armies that are more powerful, and others that are less powerful. But that's exactly what's happening now, even with this comp system, according to your (Lordgoober) posts. You play weak armies that lose, a lot, because you're working against the comp rules. Is that really better than losing because you play a weak codex?

It's stuff like these extra (complex) rules (in tournaments) and the unwritten rules (in friendly play) that keep me from having any real interest in Fantasy. Give me an army book, models I like the look at, and let me play, don't make me jump through extra hoops.
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Postby old coast » Wed Nov 11, 2009 10:10 pm

Redbeard wrote:This is what is wrong with any comp system.

These games are so complex that there is no way that lists will ever be balanced. A comp system doesn't make the game better, what it does it make the game different. I don't know Fantasy nearly well enough to pick details out of this specific system, however, if someone was so inclined to do so, I'm sure they'd find an ideal setup that was as abusive as possible under the comp rules, while still getting as many comp points as possible.


They surely will and that's why this years system is the way it is...you want to run "0" WPS go for it..


In essence, you're not removing broken lists (or units) from the game, you're simply changing the definition of what the broken lists are.


Yes, we are. this will remove the most abusive lists in the current tourney meta..there is still plenty of room for brutal lists, trust me.

Rather than do that, why not just play the game the way it's written? Sure, there will be some armies that are more powerful, and others that are less powerful.


we've been doing that for years...comp has gotten more restrictive since 07 and right now the problems are too extreme, The VC, DoC and DE books basically broke the curve. As far as I read this is a potential reason causing 8th ed to be moved up from 2011 to this year.
We want all armies to be able to participate in events not just the top 4, and no one wants to ban books..so people work to fix the problem, most players accept that. how do you think these comp systems get created?



But that's exactly what's happening now, even with this comp system, according to your (Lordgoober) posts. You play weak armies that lose, a lot, because you're working against the comp rules. Is that really better than losing because you play a weak codex?


Rob's played plenty of tough lists..he plays to the rules of the event that what he's talking about here.I've played him in several events he always brings a competitive game, ..you're misreading his intent.

It's stuff like these extra (complex) rules (in tournaments) and the unwritten rules (in friendly play) that keep me from having any real interest in Fantasy. Give me an army book, models I like the look at, and let me play, don't make me jump through extra hoops.


Sorry man, you're dead wrong. Fantasy is not 40K. It no where near as simple as you make it out..I'd say go hit the scene for a half dozen events and get back to us, but you've already made up your mind.
There are all kinds of different events for WFB, Comp, No Comp, Ard Boyz, lots of different flavors and to each his own. I play people with
balanced lists once a week, its only the large tourneys that need the babysitting if people dont like it, they're free not to participate..
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Postby khornelord0129 » Thu Nov 12, 2009 1:29 am

Who cares if there is a comp score or a painting score or a best general or overall. Me like most people are going to play in this tourney to have a good time and have fun for the weekend. If you want to run the stegadon smash go ahead and crush some skulls, but dont complain when other people are trying to have fun because you comp score was a 0. So have fun, drink beer, get drunk, and play warhammer.
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Postby blackbone » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:28 am

I am encouraged to see the WPS comp system and looking forward to playing in Fantasy Tournaments that not only use it, but thoughtfully consider the current state of the game and what can be done to make it fun for everyone.

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Postby lord scott » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:20 am

i am new to the web site as you can tell. I have been going to adepticon for four years now. And i have had fun all the time. as far as the comp. score that is being used this year is a good thing. last year i heard people complaning about how the comp is scored and why they got hit on comp for. At least this year you are able to see before you even get to the event. as said beforethere are many different ways to play. when i play and i make a list i try to justify why something is in my army. not for the comp score but for myself. the comp score help me decide if it is over the top or not.you can still play that broken list if you want. i try to keep my opponent in mind for his or her enjoyment of our game. but that is me you do what you want.
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Postby TheRagingRodian » Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:07 pm

Composition isn't just about penalizing armies that are "broken". it also displays an understanding of what would make up an army of this size, what the background and character of the army is, and how you should use your army list.

Tournaments are not just there to show game play- if gameplay is all that matters we could just play with cardboard counters and a photocopied generic army list. Tournaments are about the whole hobby culture, what makes us as wargamers unique. Thus champions are also determined due to rules knowledge, sportsmanship, painting, and yes composition.

Composition nightmares were especially pronounced in the early days of the Grand Tournaments, before the concepts of "core' "elite" "heavy support" and the like were introduced. You would see armies that were really ridiculous from a background point of view, and people often missed the difference between writing an army that was good for a one off "what if?" game and ones that showed what the spirit of the army was.

You'd get armies of all Terminators, with players oblivious as to why a chapter wouldn't risk these rare and precious armored relics in a battle against a skirmishing group of Orks.

You'd have Empire armies lacking swordsmen, spearmen, halberdiers, and handgunners, even though they are the backbone of the Empire's defenses.

You'd see Chaos marine armies that didn't have a single straight up bolter carried by any of the troops, which was mistaken as "normal" despite this being the most common armament in these legions.

Sure you could do some things with an army list.......but would that really be representative of what your chosen army is?
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Postby darwinn69 » Wed Jan 13, 2010 12:25 pm

This will be my first time attending Adepticon. Last year how many comp points did the best general's have? I just want to get an idea of what a competitive list should score in order to make it to the top prizes.
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