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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:11 pm
by pcgamer72
Wow. A zero for an ogre list? Hahahahahhahaha. Let's try this one more time... Skrag makes them special. My friend took 6 for 3 of his special slots. It is not abusive. Please tell me what you played, I have to know.

I had:

Wardancer Lord
Branchwraith
Spellsinger
Alter Noble

3x8 Dryads
2x10 Glade Guard
7 Wild Riders
1x8 Wardancers
1x7 Wardancers
3 Tree Kin
1 Treeman

Do you even understand what you write? Your grasp of the English language is poor, and I don't feel like trying to insert the words you missed into your post to read the remainder of your nonsense.

Ifearnobeer- Yeh, Skrag isn't THAT hard to kill. Rhinox Riders are a great unit for the Ogres. At least that unit makes them somewhat competitive.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:26 pm
by old coast
That's a tough WE list....I probably would have gave you a 15 or so based on
maxed out heroes specials and rares and your core being below a third
still better than average you get points for no Ancient Tree.

I ran all infantry Empire...no Stank, No war altar...FYI

yeah excuse my typos sorry, got alot going on. today.

Gorgers are still rares...anyway you want to paint it..using a special character to make them "specials" doesnt win you any comp points.. for instance my Flagellants count as core because I have a Warrior Priest but I still consider them a Rare when I build my list...

Think whatever you want...you obviously know it all so there in point discussing it with you.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:31 pm
by GrymGwar
Having scored pretty well on soft scores (but getting mangled on battle points), I would hit an opponent's army comp for the following:

1) special characters
2) use of rare/special slot modifiiers
3) Rhinox Riders

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:32 pm
by pcgamer72
I did not max out my Rare choices; I only have one Treeman. Oh, and by the way, I would give myself a 16-17 on comp.

How many handgunners/crossbowmen? How many warmachines?

You should see how quickly those Gorgers can die these days. With more and more units receiving more than 1 attack, it is becoming easier to get a bit lucky and take them out.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:51 pm
by old coast
pcgamer72 wrote:I did not max out my Rare choices; I only have one Treeman. Oh, and by the way, I would give myself a 16-17 on comp.


so we are pretty close...

I obviously understand the tournament scene, the choices that must be taken to stand a chance against some of the current power armies, and the power level of all the armies better than you, yes.


Of course you do, problem is you don't seem to understand Adepticon
at least when it comes to the fantasy championships. Alot people don't give a crap about the general no comp tourney scene or what you think they "need" to bring..this is a different kind of event.


How many handgunners/crossbowmen? How many warmachines?


10 of each..2 cannons..that was all my shooting.
No Wizard either...I had a Lector on a Horse, 2 priests and a BSB my list isnt a cake walk by any means but it scores good comp.

You should see how quickly those Gorgers can die these days. With more and more units receiving more than 1 attack, it is becoming easier to get a bit lucky and take them out.


I have no problem with 2, 6 your getting reamed on comp.. 4 wounds / cause fear, killing blow and are unbreakable, Unit str 3 at 75 points. plus coming in from off the board. ..I played Ogres round 4..versus Scrag + 3 Butchers, 2 Scrap launchers, 2 Gorgers...it was a Draw and a hard game the Gorgers where a pain, .. I cant imagine 6...its just stupid. I gave him a pretty decent comp score again- Ogres...

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:54 pm
by pcgamer72
Adepticon actually has some of the harder lists that I see on the tourney scene (aside from the GW GTs, which are canceled this year). Sure, there are some that are a bit softer than the norm, but there were quite a few armies that I saw that were pretty rough. It did look like Daemon players toned it down somewhat though (at least the ones I saw.)

Well, I think we've agreed about as much as we're going to; so, it was good having this discussion with you. Who knows, maybe I'll play you next year.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:59 pm
by old coast
Hell yeah it did, thats why people are pissed about Comp but not for the reasons you describe..they are pissed because it didn't work. the massive 25 pts of player judged comp didn't stop people from bringing "bad" (subjective) lists. I agree most Daemon players (the ones that did good0
toned it down, which was cool..

anyway I am sure comp will be different next year. (they are already talking about it) the spirit will be there...but how its implemented we'll see.

What was your final score? and did you bid battle points?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:08 pm
by pcgamer72
I finished 3-1. I lost to Elliot Vigil's fantastic Daemon army in the final round. Wood Elves, in my experience at least, have a tough time against Daemons, since they get their ward saves and I do not. However, Elliot's list contained no Greater Daemon or magic, so I knew I had a chance. He had a Bloodcrusher unit with a Khorne Herald in it, and I managed to get it stuck in against my Treeman. I was pretty certain that if I could kill that unit and Herald, I could win. I charged my Lord and his Wardancer unit at it, used the Killing Blow dance, and landed 3 KBs! He made all 3 of those ward saves though, then proceeded to tear me apart. We called it after he ran my Lord and Treeman down.

Yeh, I bid 3 battle points, but after I did it, I thought that I probably should have gone all or nothing. You're likely going to have to bid at least 4 and maybe even 5 if you're going to win best general, and the negatives still hurt your overall score, so it is probably most logical to bid 0 or 5.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:25 pm
by old coast
Yup your right on the battle points..and Elliot is the man, I hung out with him alot of the weekend, btw I went 1-2-1 and still finished in the top 25, thanks to my soft score.. :wink:

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:29 pm
by pcgamer72
I just realized one thing. Earlier, I wasn't trying to assert than comp should be worth less towards the overall score. I think it had a pretty good weight (maybe a TAD less, but I really can't complain). I just think that with a range of 0-25, it isn't easy to justify in your mind what a 17 looks like and what a 16 looks like.

Alright, it's time for me to go lose at Bloodbowl. See ya later.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:27 pm
by shadowopal
old coast wrote:If you want to try to improve your soft score in the future feel free to PM me, I had the highest soft score in Escalation and one of the three "79"s on saturday..so I "kinda" know how to do it right, its still subjective
but I certainly get the idea...


Does that go for anyone? I'm always looking to improve my soft scores. I don't think I'm taking anything cheesy. But, it'd be good to have someone to bounce ideas off of who consistantly scores well.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:44 pm
by Huoshini
shadowopal wrote:
old coast wrote:If you want to try to improve your soft score in the future feel free to PM me, I had the highest soft score in Escalation and one of the three "79"s on saturday..so I "kinda" know how to do it right, its still subjective
but I certainly get the idea...


Does that go for anyone? I'm always looking to improve my soft scores. I don't think I'm taking anything cheesy. But, it'd be good to have someone to bounce ideas off of who consistantly scores well.




You want to improve your soft scores?

Point one- Don't be an asshole. Many people will often take this as a kind gesture and award you with numbahs!

Point Two- Lose all your games- If you lose all your games you will generate pity points from on lookers and opponents alike.

Point Three- Don't call ogre players cheesy no matter what the case. It eventually ruins all credibility you have


I just Felt like jumping in the concersation Lol

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:22 am
by Bubafett
This topic is kinda a hard one to really judge. First off we are talking about Ogres. Everyone for the most part can agree that this army just is underpowered compared to whats running around out there for competition. I have a Ogre army and havent really taken it to a tournament because of this. My list that I would take is fairly similiar to the one in question and I dont think its overpowered at all. For some armies 6 gorgers is a real pain to deal with but for alot its nothing. Ogres hide behind T4 ( which dont mean crap anymore cuz who isnt T4 anymore) and then 3 wounds. We dont have armor and we have low LD. Rhinox hit like trucks but at same time they are LD 7 and if made to take a test will most likely run and they are costly. If I played that list I would give it a 20 just based on its a Ogre trying to compete and I have respect for that.

On another note is Marty on this forum? And if not can someone point me in his direction.

Marty

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:44 am
by mrclean
Marty is not here. Leave him a message.... ;)

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 11:55 am
by domus
kylek2235 wrote:From what I've seen, painting scores were really stingy, which is part of your soft scores. I loved seeing all of those really awesome fully converted armies that looked like they could walk across the tables by themselves, but it looks like they ruined the curve for the average guy's paint score.
For the record, all paint scoring in all 3 days of Adepticon Fantasy tournaments was done via a checklist. You either earned points or didn't. The only time your army was compared to any one else's was if it was being considered for the top 25% of all armies, top 10% or best army.

kylek2235 wrote:That being said, Ogres should never get a bad comp score :D Personally, I wouldn't be averse to giving Ogre players extra points for using the army! I'm slightly biased though, it's my army as well.

This illustrates why player scored comp did NOT work. It is very subjective and each of us has a different opinion.

I would personally rate this ogre list somewhere in the 18-21 range. It's not broken by any means, but definitely one of the harder builds an ogre can bring to the table.

We are discussing future plans in depth over on IWFB. http://www.iwfb.org/forums/index.php

Head on over, register and add your $0.02 to the mix.

Cheers,
Domus