Page 3 of 5

PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 11:16 pm
by grotblaster
I killed one first round. Zarakynal plus fateweaver laughed off the D weapons and then killed it in hand to hand. IMHO the issue was the flyers blocking movement more than the reavers themselves. How did you determine appropriate base size for those flyers BTW since they don't come with one?

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:14 pm
by grotblaster
One suggestion. I had three games end after turn 5 with plenty of time left in the round. One more turn would have made a huge difference. With all the objectives and battle points, the roll for a sixth or seventh turn seemed to have a huge effect. I'd like to see the roll start after turn 6 instead of 5 given the points level and multiple objectives.

PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 10:42 pm
by stormboy97
my claw stompa killed one with one charge in game 1, then my whole army was blown off the table in 3 turns by a eldar one in game 2


why do fliers also get a 4+ cover save, its hard enough to even hit them and then they get to ignore half the hits?

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 2:24 am
by Elthniar
stormboy97 wrote:why do fliers also get a 4+ cover save, its hard enough to even hit them and then they get to ignore half the hits?


Because this is a 4th edition rule that has not been updated yet. They are treated as skimmers moving fast, which in 4th meant that penetrating hits were downgraded to glancing. In 5th, it is a straight up 4+ save. Before, only Eldar flyers had the 4+ save because of their special holo-field save. Until they update some of the Apocalypse rules to 5th, this will remain an oversight. As an Eldar player, I'm bummed that everyone gets the 4+ save because I feel like I'm paying points for a rule that all flyers have now.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:09 pm
by Janthkin
Elthniar wrote:
stormboy97 wrote:why do fliers also get a 4+ cover save, its hard enough to even hit them and then they get to ignore half the hits?


Because this is a 4th edition rule that has not been updated yet. They are treated as skimmers moving fast, which in 4th meant that penetrating hits were downgraded to glancing. In 5th, it is a straight up 4+ save. Before, only Eldar flyers had the 4+ save because of their special holo-field save. Until they update some of the Apocalypse rules to 5th, this will remain an oversight. As an Eldar player, I'm bummed that everyone gets the 4+ save because I feel like I'm paying points for a rule that all flyers have now.

Eldar get *both*. The Eldar Titan Holofield save is taken after hits, and before armor penetration rolls. It's not a cover save, invulnerable save, nor armor save, and it does stack with the Skimmers Moving Fast save.

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 3:48 pm
by Elthniar
Janthkin wrote:Eldar get *both*. The Eldar Titan Holofield save is taken after hits, and before armor penetration rolls. It's not a cover save, invulnerable save, nor armor save, and it does stack with the Skimmers Moving Fast save.


Hmm I see your point and I guess by RAW you would be right. The holo-field roll isn't called a "save" and works before penetration whereas the skimmers moving fast is a cover save taken after penetration rolls. It still seems a little iffy though getting two saves...

PostPosted: Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:33 pm
by Inquisitor_Malice
I wouldn't say it is iffy. Look at plague bearers, plague marines or anyone with feel no pain. They actually get the equivalent of a second save with a 4+ to ignore the wound.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:24 pm
by bushidoredpanda
The problem is the 5th edition rules (and those in the past) do not allow 2 models to occupy the same real estate at the same time. It's not the flyer's base that blocks you, it's the model itself.

I was the one playing the 3 eldar flyers, and I faced bigred (I am also a fly lord myself). My army was designed to beat the reaver list and I would normally have had no trouble at all with it. But as we were both fly lords, we made a pact not to play seriously and just go for dramatics until turn 4. I could have beaten bigred's list in a second and have a few times in the past, but that would have been no fun for either of us. We didn't see it as collusion since it was still up in the air after turn 4 and we shouldn't have been paired up anyway. I could have played bigred here in Austin, rather than drive for 17 hours.

We spent months play testing and researching for that reaver list. I was planning on bringing it myself, but I thought it would be better to have a couple "ringers" or whatever in the form of my flyers, one warhound lash list, and ang'grath.

As a fly lord, maybe I'm just defending Jwolf, but all this WYSIWYG talk certainly sounds like whining to me. What difference does it make what the thing looks like as long as it's clear what it is? Even my vampire was not officially WYSIWYG, as it is actually a Hunter class flyer and not the Raider class I was playing it as. No one complained about that because I didn't win.

I know I personally wouldn't be participating in Gladiator without all the fun stuff, I'd rather just play in the fantasy tournament then play another 'ard boys. There are other ways to do it, and I think changing core rules are not the way to go.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:14 pm
by Redbeard
bushidoredpanda wrote:We spent months play testing and researching for that reaver list.
...

As a fly lord, maybe I'm just defending Jwolf, but all this WYSIWYG talk certainly sounds like whining to me.


It's a fine line, making constructive comments to improve the event for next year, or whining about this year. Don't go writing off people's comments as whining.

I played you in the last round, and found out that I couldn't move past your flyers. Ok, so that's how it was this year, and you guys played it well. Congratulations on finding that list and that aspect of the rules, and you deserve the prizes you won. That doesn't mean that it makes for a reasonable event next year.


What difference does it make what the thing looks like as long as it's clear what it is? Even my vampire was not officially WYSIWYG, as it is actually a Hunter class flyer and not the Raider class I was playing it as. No one complained about that because I didn't win.


And, as a side note, claiming that no one complained about your non WYSIWYG flyer doesn't mean that no one cared because you didn't win. I play eldar, and I knew you had a vampire something, but I honestly couldn't tell you the difference between the two by looking at them without some research, and especially not during the last game of a four-game tournament after drinking through the last three games ;)

What difference does it make? Well, for one thing, the rules of the event say that you have to use WYSIWYG models. That's always been part of any tournament I've attended. Just because your proxy costs $400 doesn't mean it's not a proxy.

Obviously in some of these cases, it's on the honour of the person fielding the model, as with a lot of the forgeworld things, I'm sure most gamers wouldn't know the minute details that separates a Raider from a Hunter. But, the event rules are the event rules. You want to use something Forgeworld, you have to bring the appropriate model.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:17 pm
by Centurian99
One other thing along the WYSIWYG line...we really need players to step up and help us police that. We vet all the lists, but we simply don't have the time to take each list to each table and verify that all wargear etc. is properly modeled. It's not bad sportsmanship (not that sports is scored in the gladiator) to demand that your opponent's follow the posted rules for the event.

The WYSIWYG situation with the Reavers was somewhat grey, plus it wasn't brought to our attention until Round 4. That's simply too late to make a difference. Had it been called on in Round 1, we probably would have made a much different ruling than we did in Round 4.

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:12 pm
by GregSwanson
Not being wysiwig is inexcusable it is a core tenet of every tourney at Adepticon. Where do you draw the line? In the championships? In the team tourney? I have no problem bring what you want but it better be the model or be converted to be what you say it is. I didn't bring my warhound because it is armed with a plasma blastgun and mega bolter. Could I have said it was two turbo laser destructors? Can I bring an ultra forge war daemon and say it is Angarrath? I would never bring a proxy to tourney. If that is the case it better had be announced before the tourney so we can all take advantage of it. I usualy agree with the Flylords and BoLS crew but in this I thnk you guys got it wrong. Also Bill I think it shouldn't matter when it was brought to your attention you should have ruled that the reaver was armed with what it had? If I had put an extra 250 points in my list and it was not caught until round 4 would you have said oh well, he had it for the first three rounds?

PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:15 pm
by Centurian99
GregSwanson wrote: Also Bill I think it shouldn't matter when it was brought to your attentionyou should have ruled that the reaver was armed with what it had? If I had put an extra 250 points in my list and it was not caught until round would you have said oh well, he had it for the first three rounds?


When it's not brought to our attention until after the player in question has essentially won his fourth game...there's not a whole lot that can be done. Especially when the penalty as stated in the event rules is "removal of the model in question".

If I have anything to say about it, a far more draconian WYSIWYG rule will be in effect next year.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 12:33 am
by Elthniar
bushidoredpanda wrote:I know I personally wouldn't be participating in Gladiator without all the fun stuff, I'd rather just play in the fantasy tournament then play another 'ard boys. There are other ways to do it, and I think changing core rules are not the way to go.


So you don't want to change the core rules, yet you have no problems with things not being WYSIWYG? Seems a little contradictory to me...

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:13 am
by GregSwanson
Bill, I understand your position. I am sure it will not happen next year. As for what bushidoredpanda wrote:
I know I personally wouldn't be participating in Gladiator without all the fun stuff, I'd rather just play in the fantasy tournament then play another 'ard boys. There are other ways to do it, and I think changing core rules are not the way to go.

You say you dont want to play if the fun stuff is not included? You don't want to play in another gladiator? Basically you found an oversight or glitch in the rules and exploited it as much as possible. Is that the fun stuff? It wasnt even that it was an extremely hard list it was just a list designed to take advantge of GWs great rule writing. Also it came down to money. If you are willing to go out and spend the money to buy three forgeworld pieces (reaver, arvus lighter, and thunderbolt) you win, I don't htink this was the idea that the Gladiator was created for. I think if you are going to do that you should at least have to buy the correct guns and/or models.....

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 9:27 am
by Spacecurves
Centurian99 wrote:
GregSwanson wrote: Also Bill I think it shouldn't matter when it was brought to your attentionyou should have ruled that the reaver was armed with what it had? If I had put an extra 250 points in my list and it was not caught until round would you have said oh well, he had it for the first three rounds?


When it's not brought to our attention until after the player in question has essentially won his fourth game...there's not a whole lot that can be done. Especially when the penalty as stated in the event rules is "removal of the model in question".

If I have anything to say about it, a far more draconian WYSIWYG rule will be in effect next year.


After talking with Greg Sparks about it, I understand why you guys ruled the way you did, I think you did the right thing. As awkward as it is, it is the responsibility of the players to call over a judge if their opponent doesn't have wisywig models. There is no way you'd be able to inspect everyone's models before the tournament began. I played against a fly lord titan in round 1, and should have reported it then. I let it slide because I didn't want to start Adepticon with atmoshpere ruining drama, but I've learned if your opponent puts you in that situation by bringing an illegal model, you need to call over a judge anyway. By the end of round 4 the damage was done, it's not practical to adjust scores because then pairings would have been different etc.

I would love a more draconian wisywig policy, it is the most basic rule of tournament play.

Lastly let me say, that anyone who writes, talks, and thinks about 40k as much as the flylords do should know better. It takes five minutes to glue two pencils together and paint them bolt gun metal. There is no excuse for knowingly bringing non wisywig models to the premier 40k event in the world.