40K Team Tournament Primer Scenarios (Download/Discussion)

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Postby Ed » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:02 pm

I enjoyed the missions. One possible consideration is that it looks like Command Counters cannot be give to Independent Characters. Monstrous Creature HQs (CSM DP, Greater Demon, etc) are not ICs, so if there was a specific reason to not have a single buff model get the command token, you need to bar Monstrous Critter HQs from them as well. However, if the only reason for the rule is to prevent a command counter from joining a squad, then nevermind. :)

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Postby Ed » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:39 pm

Oh, and on a side note, I really hope there is some errata about what happens when you wipe an opponent out. The rulebook says you win, no matter what the objectives are. I don't think this is the correct approach. I would argue that instead the mission continue as normal, with the victor carrying on, unimpeded, until the game ends. If the victor has no more scoring units remaining, why should they be able to win a mission that required them to capture an objective?

The other side of the coin is killpoints. If one player can only give up three KPs, but manages to kill four KPs before he is wiped out, that's a much tougher call. From the test missions it looks like each one will have a little of both capturing and KPs. One solution might be to split the difference. If you wipe your opponent off the table, you get the KP victory, but you still need to actually capture stuff to get the capture victory.

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Postby Brian » Wed Jan 28, 2009 4:08 pm

The rulebook is pretty clear on what happens in standard missions when one side gets wiped out. The winning side could have nothing but a Rhino left in a seize ground mission but they would still get the win. Adepticon missions aren't simply "you win or I win" of course. We have battle points and tactical bonuses. Therefore the final TT missions will each specify what happens when a wipeout occurs. The VAST majority of the time the winner will get all of the points available. There may be an odd tactical bonus that won't be automatic in a wipeout and those will be clearly identified.


moving on....


Yes, Command counters joining squads via IC's (and vice versa) presents some problems. I'm pitching a clarification which states that the IC would not gain the perk and the command counter does NOT transfer to him if the squad gets wiped out (and vice versa.)

So, for example, if the perk is "a unit carrying a command counter is worth 0 kill points" and an IC joins a command-countered tactical squad the IC would still be worth a kill point. In a situation where that squad gets killed leaving the IC still alive the command counter would be removed. It would not remain on the table with the IC because he's not the unit to which it was originally assigned.

Also, If a space marine squad gets a command counter while in reserves and subsequently drop pods in and divides into combat squads there may be some confusion as to what happens to the counter. This one is easy and I think most players would figure out on their own that they have to pick one of the combat squads to carry the counter. I'll still ask for a clarification in the rules.
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Postby odinsspear45 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:13 pm

I agree about clarifying the counters. if you assign it to a unit before deployment.. and then the unit deploys into seperate parts do all the units benefit from it?

Death Cultist is a good example.

if i assign the dont count as KP.

and then the 3 DC's split off at deployment (or outflank)

do all three not count towards KP?

*******

Concerning Wipeout. I consider it the only way that massive KP armies can compete with few KP armies. I would be severely disappointed in making me play by the book KP's (i play IG) and then removing my one hope vs low KP armies by changing the base rules.

Just my humble opinion of course.
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Postby 00Enron » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:58 pm

I agree with Ed. I think that just because a player wipes out another player doesn't mean they are fulfilling the mission parameters. If the mission states that both you and your coalition need to be in the same deployment zone to get the points its exactly what it means.

For example if one coalition member doesn't have any units left on the table but you table your opponent why should that count as an automatic win with full points? If you play by the mission it would be a draw because neither player is able to complete the objective.

Also a suggestion about the big show. Personally I would have players judge theme and composition before the game begins. This lets players look at their opponents list objectively. Some opponents will ding another team because they lost. Theme and Composition scores should be taken into account before the dice are rolled. This can easily be accomplished. Just have a slip of paper that each side checks off before the game starts then durring the game have the staff go around and collect the scores. Easy.
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Postby Ed » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:05 pm

Brian wrote: Therefore the final TT missions will each specify what happens when a wipeout occurs. The VAST majority of the time the winner will get all of the points available. There may be an odd tactical bonus that won't be automatic in a wipeout and those will be clearly identified.


Necrons. :(

At the regional 'Ard Boyz tournament, one player played against Necrons in two of his three rounds and phased them out both times. As a result he got maximum points from those rounds. He won the tournament, and apparently the difference in points between himself and the person who came in second was so great that he could have opted to not play in one of the rounds and still won the tournament.

That's an anecdotal example, and maybe it's been exaggerated a bit by those who told me, but the glaring problem still exists. Necrons are tournament ruiners in 5th edition. It's even worse for the Necron player, because no matter what they do to their opponent before they get phased out, it's like they never even set up their army. I mean, their opponents could have two scoring units in the whole coalition army list, but somehow manage to capture four objectives because the Necrons phased out?

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Postby Brian » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:48 pm

odinsspear45 wrote:I agree about clarifying the counters. if you assign it to a unit before deployment.. and then the unit deploys into seperate parts do all the units benefit from it?

Death Cultist is a good example.

if i assign the dont count as KP.

and then the 3 DC's split off at deployment (or outflank)

do all three not count towards KP?



The clarifications and revisions to the CC system based on the primer feedback will eventually be updated to the official tournament rules on the website. The rule is actually going to read "A Team Member uses a command counter by assigning it at the beginning of the game after deployment but before the first turn is played." Therefore, units such as Zoanthropes and DC assassins who can deploy as individual elements won't create a problem because (if the owner chooses) they'll all exist as separate units on the table before players even get a chance to assign counters. The rules will also update to reflect the fact that it's OK to place it with units in reserve. The way they're worded right now it's unclear regarding reserves.

As for "splitting" units from reserves: The command counter would go with ONE of the DC assassins/combat squads/etc (your choice) when they arrive from reserves. If the "zero kill point" perk is in effect then the other elements of the squad would still be worth 1 KP each.
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Postby odinsspear45 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:42 pm

00Enron wrote:I agree with Ed. I think that just because a player wipes out another player doesn't mean they are fulfilling the mission parameters. If the mission states that both you and your coalition need to be in the same deployment zone to get the points its exactly what it means. .


I appreciate that you agree with Ed but the rules state you WIN "regardless of sceraio objectives" I concede it can be problematic for some armies, however if i am being screwed as an IG player with KP's why should you get a break from me being able to table you in KP missions? KP's are going down as they are in the book so should WIpeout. you would still be eligable for potential bonus "tactical points"
When an opponet is removed completely from the table the other guy wins. you may have hurt them but they won the field.

00Enron wrote:For example if one coalition member doesn't have any units left on the table but you table your opponent why should that count as an automatic win with full points? If you play by the mission it would be a draw because neither player is able to complete the objective..


As i said earlier its a balancing issue. Differnet armies have different strengths. being ABLE to table someone is an accomplishment in and of itself. I believe it will probably not even come into effect but maybe 5-10% of games at best. Why remove one rule that causes some people to complain but not attempt to fix KP? THe point is some armies will have difficulty taking and sitting on objectives.. tau/ig etc.. a good cc squad hitting one of those will almost assuredly obliterate them.. the tau and IG would customarily simply shoot them off the field of battle then stand over the corpose once the battlefield has been cleansed.

00Enron wrote:Also a suggestion about the big show. Personally I would have players judge theme and composition before the game begins. This lets players look at their opponents list objectively. Some opponents will ding another team because they lost. Theme and Composition scores should be taken into account before the dice are rolled. This can easily be accomplished. Just have a slip of paper that each side checks off before the game starts then durring the game have the staff go around and collect the scores. Easy.


I LIKE this idea. it would potentially prevent unethical people from unnecessarily tanking someones scores based upon an emotional outburst from losing. But of course it means 2 slips pergame.. one pregame and another afterwards for sportsmanship.
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Postby odinsspear45 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:43 pm

Brian wrote:
odinsspear45 wrote:I agree about clarifying the counters. if you assign it to a unit before deployment.. and then the unit deploys into seperate parts do all the units benefit from it?

Death Cultist is a good example.

if i assign the dont count as KP.

and then the 3 DC's split off at deployment (or outflank)

do all three not count towards KP?



The clarifications and revisions to the CC system based on the primer feedback will eventually be updated to the official tournament rules on the website. The rule is actually going to read "A Team Member uses a command counter by assigning it at the beginning of the game after deployment but before the first turn is played." Therefore, units such as Zoanthropes and DC assassins who can deploy as individual elements won't create a problem because (if the owner chooses) they'll all exist as separate units on the table before players even get a chance to assign counters. The rules will also update to reflect the fact that it's OK to place it with units in reserve. The way they're worded right now it's unclear regarding reserves.

As for "splitting" units from reserves: The command counter would go with ONE of the DC assassins/combat squads/etc (your choice) when they arrive from reserves. If the "zero kill point" perk is in effect then the other elements of the squad would still be worth 1 KP each.


Mores the pity. i was hoping it would negate some of the extremeis.. so an IC with retinue you can only get rid of 1 KP it would not neutralize both?
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Postby icenutz » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:04 pm

I also agree with Ed, in a tourney like Adepticon every point counts and just because you tabled someone that doesn’t mean you achieved the objective. If you have no scoring units then you can’t capture. If your opponent beat you in Kill points but got wiped out you lost in kill points. I understand in friendly games a Wipe out is a wipe out but for the tournament; when every point counts, people better achieve each objective they claim to achieve. Other wise I could simply forget the mission and put my whole army into sacrifice kill mode to phase a necron player. And then in the end when I have one marine left I win all the points because of some stupid rule that should be overwritten for tourney purpose. It’s not like they are not changing other rules.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sat Jan 31, 2009 8:34 am

If you table them, you should get full points. It's our 3rd and 4th edition battle point tier system that is playing havoc with 5th edition win/loss outcomes. In the main book they only talk about wins, Adepticon is trying to seperate out the degree you can win with arbitrary catagories. The rulebook calls tabling a win regardless of the scenario (objective). What can be more clear than that.

It is quite easy in a 2k team event to eliminate all of one opponents troops, especially if they are weak troops. There is no reason to take away weak troop armies one saving grace, tabling. Likewise there is the case of 2 duel Nob Biker lists which will give up minimal KP's. They can force an autowin with a combination charge very early in the game. The only recourse for the opponent would be to wipe them out and win the game.
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