Any word on the Battlefleet Gothc Tourney primer?

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Any word on the Battlefleet Gothc Tourney primer?

Postby Deadshane » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:28 pm

My gang and I here in VA are ready to start playing some new scenarios! I'm hoping the missions will be posted somewhere.
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Postby Lordgoober » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:48 pm

Cripes. Thanks for reminding me. I'm running the event and I've got the scenarios pretty much set. Lemme give text summaries here as I'm not at my own place where I have the scenarios fully written out and will give the official copies to the webmaster soon.

Scenario 1: Sink the Bismark

Terrain as normal

Straight Win/Loss scenario. Player with the most expensive capital ship (including character if on the ship) controls the "Bismark". Game lasts 8 turns. If the "Bismark" is still alive at the end of 8 turns or 2.5 hours, that player wins. If the "Bismark" is sunk, the other player wins. 15/5 BPs for win/loss

Sub Objective: Standard VP with 350 VP differential needed for non draw. 5/3/0 BP

Scenario 2: Battle on the Edge of the Warp

Standard Terrain with a Warp Rift placed in the center of the board.

Win/Loss/Draw is standard VP as per the rules in the A-Con website.

At the beginning of each player's turn, pick a ship/squadron and roll a d6 going through the ships/squadrons until you roll your first 5-6 or you go through your whole fleet. If you roll a 5-6 for a ship/squadron, they have hit a warp eddy and are bounced 1d6x10 cm in a random direction as if they successfully navigated a warp rift with 2 exceptions. 1: They have to go the full distance rolled, 2: this may not take the ship off the board, place the ship at the board edge if the full distance would put the ship off the board. You may face the ship/squadron in any direction after the move. Once these rolls have been done for the turn, take the rest of your turn as normal.

Sub Missions Roll before deployment for which one you get. (These are the sub missions but I might have them in the wrong order) 5/3/0 BP for full/partial/failure

1-2: Navigate the warp rift. Full success: Successfully have a ship/squadron navigate the rift. Partial Success: Lose a ship/squadron attempting to navigate the rift. Failure: Don't try to navigate the rift.

3-4: Deplete the enemy's escort screen: Full Success: Destroy or force to disengage all the enemy's escorts. Partial Success: Destroy or force to disengage half the enemy's escorts. Failure: Fail to destroy or force to disengage at least half of the enemy's escorts. Reroll your submission if your opponent's fleet has no escorts.

5-6: Break the line. your mission is to get 4 "points" of ships off the opponent's side of the board. These ships will not count as disengaged for the purposes of victory points. Battleships are worth 4 points, Cruisers are worth 2 points, Escorts are worth 1 point for every full 3 ships in the squadron that get off the board. Full success: get 4 points off. Partial success: get 2 points off. Failure: don't get at least 2 points off.

Scenario 3: Scavenger Hunt (This one needs a bit more playtesting)

Terrain as normal

Each player before deployment will place 8 tokens face down on the board with a distance of at least 20 cm between each token and at least 20 cm from a board edge. These tokens will be numbered 1-16.

After deployment but before the game starts, the TO (me) will announce which token contains the missing plans. This token will be worth 300 VP if controlled by a player at the end of the game. Other tokens will be worth 50 VP each if controlled at the end of the game. Other than that, standard victory conditions apply.

To pick up a token, a ship must stop on the token. Ships that hold tokens may not voluntarily disengage. If a ship holding tokens is destroyed, the tokens are dropped right where the ship was. If a ship holding tokens loses a defensive boarding action (IE it was boarded) then the winner of the boarding action takes all the tokens that ship was holding.

Sub Missions:

1-2: Disgraced Ship: Pick a capital ship of yours at random. This captain is disgraced. In order to redeem his honor he must take part in the destruction of a capital ship. Complete Success: This ship contributes at least one die of weapon battery or lance firepower in the salvo that destroys a capital ship. Partial Success: The ship contributes at least one die of weapon battery or lance firepower in the salvo that cripples an enemy capital ship. Failure: The ship fails to contribute to the crippling or destruction of an enemy capital ship.

3-4: Revenge!!!: Randomly select an enemy capital ship. This ship must be sunk or forced to disengage at all cost: Full Success: The targeted ship is destroyed. Partial Success: The ship is crippled. Failure: The ship is at full combat capability and on the board at the end of the battle.

5-6: Head of the Snake: Disrupt the command structure of the enemy fleet by taking out the enemy fleet commander. Full Success: Kill the enemy character (main enemy flagship for fleets with multiple characters, reroll this sub mission if the opponent is playing Tyranids or Necrons as they have no characters in their fleet) by either destroying the enemy flagship or having a "Bridge Smashed" critical happen to the ship. Partial Success: Cripple the enemy flagship or force it to disengage. Failure: The enemy flagship is at full combat capability and on the board at the end of the game.

There you go. I'll get the fully correct versions to the A-Con webmaster ASAP. If you guys could give me some feedback on scenario 3 using some of the more exotic fleets (Eldar and Necrons primarily) then I would be most happy. I plan on doing one more "tournament primer" at the Chicago bunker before the end of February. I say "Tournament Primer" as the last 2 I have run have ended up being about 4-6 people.
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Postby Deadshane » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:06 am

Lordgoober wrote:Scenario 1: Sink the Bismark

Terrain as normal

Straight Win/Loss scenario. Player with the most expensive capital ship (including character if on the ship) controls the "Bismark". Game lasts 8 turns. If the "Bismark" is still alive at the end of 8 turns or 2.5 hours, that player wins. If the "Bismark" is sunk, the other player wins. 15/5 BPs for win/loss

Sub Objective: Standard VP with 350 VP differential needed for non draw. 5/3/0 BP



This mission alarms me.

Attacker/Defender missions are potentially horribly unbalanced within a tournement situation.

If the "Bismark" is say a Void stalker with the sun where the Eldar wants it, how is a slow fleet...like a tyranid fleet...supposed to sink the bismark? Auto-Lose for a tyranid fleet? If anything sinking the Bismark should be a tertiary objective, or an adjustment to whatever victory is already in place. "standard victory points win/lose, However if attacker sinks the Bismark and scores victory points for win...auto slaughter regardless of points. Reverse is true, if defender's Bismark survives, and he's won on victory points....auto slaughter."

A mission such as this is TERRIBLY unbalanced in the favor of a speedy fleet under certain situations, especially if you consider the TIME it takes to destroy say a battleship (or a space hulk?) that is braced for impact.

Nope, dont think this one is a good idea....please playtest this LOTS.

I'll look at the other missions more closely later today.
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Postby Lordgoober » Mon Jan 12, 2009 11:53 am

We've had about 8 games worth of playtesting so far on the bismark scenario and it seems to have been working fairly well. Maybe I should change it so that instead of an attacker/defender, the goal is to destroy the most expensive capital ship of the opponent's. Win = yours alive and opponent's dead. Draw = both alive or both dead. Another note. A space hulk is not a capital ship, it's technically a defense. I should have clarified that Space Hulks cannot be the bismark.

I would like all these scenarios tested with Necrons used at some point. We don't have an active Necron player here in Chicago.
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Postby Deadshane » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:50 pm

Lordgoober wrote:We've had about 8 games worth of playtesting so far on the bismark scenario and it seems to have been working fairly well. Maybe I should change it so that instead of an attacker/defender, the goal is to destroy the most expensive capital ship of the opponent's. Win = yours alive and opponent's dead. Draw = both alive or both dead.
This could be a bit better, still not totally comfortable with the idea...since it would STILL leave the initiative HEAVILY on the speedier fleets side but at least you cannot 'Metagame' to auto-win. (note please that I'm not just trying to bash your ideas....at least you're trying to come up with something other than "Go FIGHT!" I'm just an interested participant in Gothic that wants to see the missions equally fair for everyone. The last thing you want I'm sure is 5-6 people loudly complaining about one of the missions DURING the Tournement!)
Another note. A space hulk is not a capital ship, it's technically a defense. I should have clarified that Space Hulks cannot be the bismark.
Technically then, the orks HAVE no capital ships. In either fleet list no ships are listed as "capital ships" as are in other fleet lists....Orks have 'Battleships/Battlekroozers, and Kroozers' no 'Capital Ships' Catagory. It's obvious to me what you're saying, but HARD RAW purists (like me) will go on to point this out. :wink:

One other thing about this mission, that it doesnt address the "Bismark" disengaging.

Obviously, a ship that disengages is worth VERY LITTLE in the way of victory points assuming that it hasnt even been crippled. The fact is that for really good players, disengaging ships before they're destroyed is a VERY real strategy to save a Victory point disadvantage. Make sure that you address this as questions are SURE to arise...."My opponents Bismark disengaged on turn 1! Its now impossible for me to win the game!" Sure you can simply say...if the Bismark disengages it counts as destroyed but even this feels wrong to me given the fact that if you disengage a ship that hasnt even been crippled yet the victory points are only worth 10%. Despite what the scenario says, you HAVENT destroyed it, and the rulebook is essetially saying that disengaging does little to help the opponents overall victory in the battle.

(again, not picking on your mission. I'd think you'd WANT someone to come in and shoot holes in the mission if possible! I wish I could playtest with your group instead, but we'll prolly have to just deal with me complaining online! 8) That is unless you've got BattleFleet on VASSAL or something and can tell me where to get it! :P )
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Postby Deadshane » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:07 pm

Lordgoober wrote:Scenario 2: Battle on the Edge of the Warp

Standard Terrain with a Warp Rift placed in the center of the board.

Win/Loss/Draw is standard VP as per the rules in the A-Con website.

At the beginning of each player's turn, pick a ship/squadron and roll a d6 going through the ships/squadrons until you roll your first 5-6 or you go through your whole fleet. If you roll a 5-6 for a ship/squadron, they have hit a warp eddy and are bounced 1d6x10 cm in a random direction as if they successfully navigated a warp rift with 2 exceptions. 1: They have to go the full distance rolled, 2: this may not take the ship off the board, place the ship at the board edge if the full distance would put the ship off the board. You may face the ship/squadron in any direction after the move. Once these rolls have been done for the turn, take the rest of your turn as normal.

Sub Missions Roll before deployment for which one you get. (These are the sub missions but I might have them in the wrong order) 5/3/0 BP for full/partial/failure

1-2: Navigate the warp rift. Full success: Successfully have a ship/squadron navigate the rift. Partial Success: Lose a ship/squadron attempting to navigate the rift. Failure: Don't try to navigate the rift.

3-4: Deplete the enemy's escort screen: Full Success: Destroy or force to disengage all the enemy's escorts. Partial Success: Destroy or force to disengage half the enemy's escorts. Failure: Fail to destroy or force to disengage at least half of the enemy's escorts. Reroll your submission if your opponent's fleet has no escorts.

5-6: Break the line. your mission is to get 4 "points" of ships off the opponent's side of the board. These ships will not count as disengaged for the purposes of victory points. Battleships are worth 4 points, Cruisers are worth 2 points, Escorts are worth 1 point for every full 3 ships in the squadron that get off the board. Full success: get 4 points off. Partial success: get 2 points off. Failure: don't get at least 2 points off.


This mission actually seems not all that bad to me. Its got what missions REALLY need...little things that change up the game but essentially...its still just a game of Battlefleet Gothic. You dont have to have scenario's lend a HUGE impact to the game to make it interesting. The strange 'movements' that will be in this game are enough to make the game interesting without a danger of unbalance.

The only thing I DONT care for is the sub-mission concerning escorts. What happens if the opponent HAS no escorts? Auto-win here? Without any effort? Auto-lose? Roll again?...again, questions will come up. (Probably the simplest and most fair thing to do here WOULD be roll again, in fact...that is the fix I would suggest)

There are those out there that dont use escorts at all, and I'm against any attempt in a tournement that would penalise/reward players for any particular sort of build. It really goes against the hobby and puts one persons opinion of the game above anothers.

Its no secret that I personally hate all escorts. I find them TOO fragile and find ordinance to do the job of "escorting" much more effectively than any escort squadron can. Maybe it isnt "fluffy" according to the rules but one can argue that its more "tactical" and that is certainly as good of an arguement 'against' as fluffy is 'for'.

In a TOURNEMENT, Tactical players have just as much right to a fair game as the fluffy players might. Its not about what the 'right' fleet composition is...thats what comp rules/sportsmanship is for. During the Actual GAME, let the players determine the outcome....not the rules.
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Postby Deadshane » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:15 pm

Lordgoober wrote:
Scenario 3: Scavenger Hunt (This one needs a bit more playtesting)

Terrain as normal

Each player before deployment will place 8 tokens face down on the board with a distance of at least 20 cm between each token and at least 20 cm from a board edge. These tokens will be numbered 1-16.

After deployment but before the game starts, the TO (me) will announce which token contains the missing plans. This token will be worth 300 VP if controlled by a player at the end of the game. Other tokens will be worth 50 VP each if controlled at the end of the game. Other than that, standard victory conditions apply.

To pick up a token, a ship must stop on the token. Ships that hold tokens may not voluntarily disengage. If a ship holding tokens is destroyed, the tokens are dropped right where the ship was. If a ship holding tokens loses a defensive boarding action (IE it was boarded) then the winner of the boarding action takes all the tokens that ship was holding.

Sub Missions:

1-2: Disgraced Ship: Pick a capital ship of yours at random. This captain is disgraced. In order to redeem his honor he must take part in the destruction of a capital ship. Complete Success: This ship contributes at least one die of weapon battery or lance firepower in the salvo that destroys a capital ship. Partial Success: The ship contributes at least one die of weapon battery or lance firepower in the salvo that cripples an enemy capital ship. Failure: The ship fails to contribute to the crippling or destruction of an enemy capital ship.

3-4: Revenge!!!: Randomly select an enemy capital ship. This ship must be sunk or forced to disengage at all cost: Full Success: The targeted ship is destroyed. Partial Success: The ship is crippled. Failure: The ship is at full combat capability and on the board at the end of the battle.

5-6: Head of the Snake: Disrupt the command structure of the enemy fleet by taking out the enemy fleet commander. Full Success: Kill the enemy character (main enemy flagship for fleets with multiple characters, reroll this sub mission if the opponent is playing Tyranids or Necrons as they have no characters in their fleet) by either destroying the enemy flagship or having a "Bridge Smashed" critical happen to the ship. Partial Success: Cripple the enemy flagship or force it to disengage. Failure: The enemy flagship is at full combat capability and on the board at the end of the game.

There you go. I'll get the fully correct versions to the A-Con webmaster ASAP. If you guys could give me some feedback on scenario 3 using some of the more exotic fleets (Eldar and Necrons primarily) then I would be most happy. I plan on doing one more "tournament primer" at the Chicago bunker before the end of February. I say "Tournament Primer" as the last 2 I have run have ended up being about 4-6 people.


When I first started reading this scenario...I was cringing...again a speedier fleet has a huge advantage. Then I saw that it was simply a victory point bonus...and there are ways that a slower fleet can play in that situation to win.

I actually REALLY like this mission and hope it stays in the roundup. The only thing I'll ask is in the 1st secondary mission, "disgraced", you need to have it state ANY attack....ramming, boarding, torpedo attacks, ordinance, heck, even a teleport attack that somehow results in the ships destruction....not just lance/weapons.
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Postby Lordgoober » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:05 pm

I thought that for the Escort one I had put in the specifications "Reroll your sub mission if your opponent doesn't have escorts" Looking at it, yes I did, look at the last sentence for that one.

On the concerns about the 3rd mission, we had a CWE player in the tournament where I tested this one for the first time and even though he was getting tokens early, he was getting beaten down enough to where the game ended in a draw.


For the Disgraced Submission, man, I didn't even think about the other types of damage creation. Consider that edited.

The Token one WILL be staying in, the only edits I'm thinking about for it are whether to keep the token count at 16 or lower it to 12.

Official Change for The Bismark Scenario. No longer an Attacker/Defender. Victory condition is now to destroy your opponent's most expensive Capital Ship (Capital ship being a ship that has Cruiser/Battleship in its profile, silly ork players...)

Player gets the win if their most expensive Capital Ship is alive at the end of the game and their opponent's most expensive Capital Ship is dead. If both targets are alive or both are dead by the end of the game, then the game is a draw. One other caveat that I forgot to mention, the targetted ship may NOT voluntarily disengage. If the ship accidentally disengages by moving off the board then the ship is considered destroyed for victory conditions.

Note, in the second version of the second scenario there was an added rule that got discarded immediately for being too time cumbersome. Essentially the Warp Rift in the center was going to act as a Black Hole that would start pulling things in on the second player's End Phase and every End Phase after that. Terrain hitting the warp rift would have been destroyed, ships hitting the warp rift would have tried to navigate it, terrain and ships that get shifted into each other count as the ship voluntarily moving into the terrain.
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Postby Deadshane » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:37 am

Lordgoober wrote:I thought that for the Escort one I had put in the specifications "Reroll your sub mission if your opponent doesn't have escorts" Looking at it, yes I did, look at the last sentence for that one.
whoops, my bad....rant recalled.

For the Disgraced Submission, man, I didn't even think about the other types of damage creation. Consider that edited.
I'm here to help! :wink:
Official Change for The Bismark Scenario. No longer an Attacker/Defender. Victory condition is now to destroy your opponent's most expensive Capital Ship (Capital ship being a ship that has Cruiser/Battleship in its profile, silly ork players...)

Player gets the win if their most expensive Capital Ship is alive at the end of the game and their opponent's most expensive Capital Ship is dead. If both targets are alive or both are dead by the end of the game, then the game is a draw. One other caveat that I forgot to mention, the targetted ship may NOT voluntarily disengage. If the ship accidentally disengages by moving off the board then the ship is considered destroyed for victory conditions.


I still think you're heading for lots of ties in the first round...and there's also the possibility of decimating an opponents fleet while he hides behind a planet unworried about losing since the slow fleet he's up against was held up by all the "small fry"...now all he has to do is brace and hold on waiting for the final turn of the game. I think a victory point bonus...like the objective mission would be more appropriate...maybe double victory points for the "Bismark"? That would get your point across being that it will be the most expensive ship and almost ENSURE a win...even in a situation where the rest of the fleet is getting pasted...."at least my BB lived and I destroyed yours though...nice, 1000 victory points for destroying your BB along with the admiral riding inside....I win.

Yes, that would be much better I think. Otherwise the mission caters to cowardly players...not so if its a simple victory point reward for sinking the "Bismark". "Oh well, this guys saw he was outclassed from the get-go, he tried to shelter his big ship, and succeeded, but I still got the victory point advantage, and the win. His cowardice couldnt save him in the long run." (much easier for a cowardly player to shelter a single ship by putting the rest of his fleet in between him and the enemy...that way he at least cultivates a 'SAFE' tie game for more overall points than the loss he deserves.)

Double Victory points would have no drawbacks and get your point across about the importance of the "Bismark" surviving.

Also, dont forget that all "Most expensive capital ships" are NOT created equal. Repulsive class Grand Cruiser with simple no added RR Warlord VS. Eldar Void Stalker w/big 200pt pirate prince aboard?

Doesnt seem like a fair tradeoff to me. I would say if both ships were destroyed, the chaos player is WAY ahead of the game....as it should be.

However...double victory points? THAT makes more sense.
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Postby Lordgoober » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:22 am

Note that the secondary objective is standard victory conditions so there should still be some difference in battle points. I can see your thoughts though. Can you give me a set of 3 sub missions for scenario 1 that would make sense with a double vp bonus for the "Bismark?"
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Postby Deadshane » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:37 am

I'm sure I could come up with something. If you really want me to come up with something, gimmie a day or so.....
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Postby Deadshane » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:46 pm

Here are some winners from 2007 to add to the bismark mission...

1-2: Pickup and Retreival

Before deployment, secretly nominate one enemy capital ship (possibly BESIDES the bismark). On board this ship is a spy/data/archaeotech that must be kept out of enemy hands. And preferably in your own, but denying it to the enemy takes priority

FULL-Perform a hit-and-run attack or boarding action on the selected enemy ship

PARTIAL-Destroy the selected enemy ship. Without first performing a hit and run attack or a boarding action


3-4 Protect the Planet (since most all boards have a large planet on them)

Clear the space around the planet of all enemy ships.

FULL-at the end of the game, you have at least one non-crippled capital ship or escort squadron at 50+% of their starting strength within 20cm of the planet, and you opponent has none.

PARTIAL-you have more non-crippled capital ships and escort squadrons at 50+% of their starting strength within 20cm of the planet than your opponent does.


5-6 Pyrrhic Avoidance

Your fleet must remain operational.

FULL- Have 50% of your capital ships alive or disengaged without being crippled.

PARTIAL- Have more capital ships remaining at the end of the game than your opponent.
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Postby Centurian99 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:17 pm

Aw, you're giving my warm fuzziess...

Looks good to me, Rob. Only a couple of things popped out at me.

1 - I'd get some varied submissions for #1. Part of the good feedback from previous years has been the concept of players playing for different objectives.

2 - On mission 3, that's an Awful Lot of Tokens. In fact, if I figure it right, it'll often be to a player's benefit to ignore the "actual" objective and work to pick up every other one. If you have 16, that's 1 that's worth 300, and 15 that are worth 50, for 750 points total.

3 - On mission 2, are ordnance affected?
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Postby Lordgoober » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:10 am

1: I like those sub missions for scenario one deadshane, consider them official.

2: How many tokens do you think should be used for scenario 3? I was planning on running it a few more times here with friends with lower numbers of tokens. I was thinking 12 might work out best.

3: No. Ordinance is not effected.


Official change to scenario 1: Most expensive capital ship in the enemy's fleet is worth double VP if destroyed. Those ships cannot voluntarily disengage. Standard VP other than that.

Because of that change to scenario 1, there is going to be an official change to the fleet construction rules. You must include at least one Cruiser or Battleship class ship in your fleet (I mention that because some fleets IE Tau and Nids can take battleships and no cruisers.)

I will get the current final versions of the scenarios to the website coordinator tomorrow.
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Postby Lordgoober » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:08 pm

Ok. Completely ignore the Bismark Scenario in the early posts.

This is the current version of the Bismark that should be practiced with.

Standard Fleet Engagement Rules with this modification to VPs.

Your most expensive Capital Ship (Cruiser or Battleship class) is worth Double VP if destroyed and cannot voluntarily Disengage from the battlefield. If the ship moves off a board edge for any reason it is considered to have been destroyed for the purposes of VP.

Terrain will be set up by the TO for each table, for practice, each table will have 3 Gas Cloud templates, 3 Asteroid Field templates and a Medium Planet.

1-2: Pickup and Retreival

Before deployment, secretly nominate one enemy capital ship (possibly BESIDES the bismark). On board this ship is a spy/data/archaeotech that must be kept out of enemy hands. And preferably in your own, but denying it to the enemy takes priority

FULL-Perform a hit-and-run attack or boarding action on the selected enemy ship

PARTIAL-Destroy the selected enemy ship. Without first performing a hit and run attack or a boarding action


3-4 Protect the Planet (since most all boards have a large planet on them)

Clear the space around the planet of all enemy ships.

FULL-at the end of the game, you have at least one non-crippled capital ship or escort squadron at 50+% of their starting strength within 20cm of the planet, and you opponent has none.

PARTIAL-you have more non-crippled capital ships and escort squadrons at 50+% of their starting strength within 20cm of the planet than your opponent does.


5-6 Pyrrhic Avoidance

Your fleet must remain operational.

FULL- Have 50% of your capital ships alive or disengaged without being crippled.

PARTIAL- Have more capital ships remaining at the end of the game than your opponent.
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