So I skimmed the 40k Team Tournament Rules...

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So I skimmed the 40k Team Tournament Rules...

Postby AgeOfEgos » Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:34 pm

Do I understand this correctly?

All space marine team;

Everyone takes Sternguard
One takes Kantor.
Anytime the Kantor player is on the table, the coalitions Sternguard count as scoring (So both players, two units...or three if they have the floater)
Another player takes a Master of the Forge
Therefore every player can take a Dread as a Heavy Support, even the Kantor player.

So essentially, they could all do Sternguard Elite (Extra floater on one), Ironclad Heavy (Extra floater on one) and Tac filler. Rules I'm referencing;

Special/Unique/Named Character abilities (including psychic powers) that affect your own force do not affect your Coalition Team Member unless their codex includes Special/Unique/Named Character in question.


and

Special/Unique/Named units that alter an army's force organization selections WILL affect other Team Member's 1,000-point lists that use the same codex (e.g. Belial or Sammael).



This seems strange to me. A marine coalition with no Master of the Forge could be playing on a table with two Dreads as Heavies and two Sternguard as elites...because their buddy on another table has a Master of the Forge?
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Postby muwhe » Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:11 pm

Except that only Sternguard on the table with Kantor are effected by Kantor ablilities.

*edited* See Matt's post below.

So you could have 1k with Kantor w\Sternguard and when paired with each other 1k force w\Sternguard of that force would benefit from Kantors abilities.

A coalition is the combination of two 1k forces.
Last edited by muwhe on Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby AgeOfEgos » Mon Nov 24, 2008 10:19 pm

muwhe wrote:Except that only Sternguard on the table with Kantor are effected by Kantor ablilities.

The same goes for Master of the Forge.

So you could have 1k with Kantor w\Sternguard and when paired with each other 1k force w\Sternguard of that force would benefit from Kantors abilities.

A coalition is the combination of two 1k forces.


I understand that the Sternguard will count as scoring only when Kantor is present (Which will be half the games), however it appears that the Master of the Forge FOC change is in effect all the time (regardless of what table he is on). Same with a captain o the bike.

Special/Unique/Named units that alter an army's force organization selections WILL affect other Team Member's 1,000-point lists that use the same codex (e.g. Belial or Sammael).


This means if one guy takes a Master of the Forge every marine player can take two Ironclad dreads (One as elite, one as heavy).
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Postby Matthias » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:44 pm

Master of the Forge: This how the Team Tournament has always been. The biggest change is the access to Special Characters - however in your example it makes no difference when compared to the 2006, 2007 or 2008 rules as all four players are assumed to be playing Space Marines anyways.

The Rule has always been (this is quoted from the 2008 rules):
Code: Select all
If a Special or Named Character provides alterations to the army's Force Org Selection (i.e. Belial or the Master of the Ravenwing), the Force Org alterations WILL  affect other team member's 1000 point lists.


Granted the Master of the Forge did not exist in 2008, but his impact is similar if not as entirely specific. You cannot regulate a character that changes the Force Org across an entire Army *unless* you had them only alter that specific player's Force Org (making all Ravenguard, all Deathwing and other similar armies impossible since Special Characters cannot be duplicated). You cannot have that Force Org change rule be reevaluated each time a coalition is formed or it would result in illegal lists every other game.

The Master of the Forge is even called out under clarifications. The thing you have to keep in mind in your example is the limited FOC of the Team Tournament. You also have to remember that there are only technically 3 floating choices across the entire team - 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack and 1 Heavy. There is nothing left for that 4th player.

The Force Org before the floating choice is:

1 HQ
0-1 Elites
1-3 Troops
0-1 Fast
0-1 Heavy

So every Ironclad that is counted as an Elite you cannot take a Sterngard Vet Squad (potential scoring unit) and vice versa.

Special Character abilities that alter a Force Org, alter all Force Organizations on a Team from that codex, you cannot opt out of this.

Special Character abilities that have a direct impact during a game (change units to scoring, wargear, bolter drills, etc) only affect the Coalition on the table and only then if they are from the same codex.
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Postby Ed » Tue Nov 25, 2008 11:08 am

I haven't had my coffee yet, so I apologize is this is a daft question:

Space Marine Command squads count as HQ choices in the force Org. They also require that you field a Captain in the same list to field them.

So how does one field a Space Marine Command squad in the team tournament? Can I ignore the pre-requisite of needing the Captain? Can I field one if my other three team members all field Space Marine Captains?

Thanks.

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Postby Redbeard » Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:53 pm

You use your floating slot for the command squad.
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Postby AgeOfEgos » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:00 pm

Matthias wrote:Master of the Forge: This how the Team Tournament has always been. The biggest change is the access to Special Characters - however in your example it makes no difference when compared to the 2006, 2007 or 2008 rules as all four players are assumed to be playing Space Marines anyways.

The Rule has always been (this is quoted from the 2008 rules):
Code: Select all
If a Special or Named Character provides alterations to the army's Force Org Selection (i.e. Belial or the Master of the Ravenwing), the Force Org alterations WILL  affect other team member's 1000 point lists.


Granted the Master of the Forge did not exist in 2008, but his impact is similar if not as entirely specific. You cannot regulate a character that changes the Force Org across an entire Army *unless* you had them only alter that specific player's Force Org (making all Ravenguard, all Deathwing and other similar armies impossible since Special Characters cannot be duplicated). You cannot have that Force Org change rule be reevaluated each time a coalition is formed or it would result in illegal lists every other game.

The Master of the Forge is even called out under clarifications. The thing you have to keep in mind in your example is the limited FOC of the Team Tournament. You also have to remember that there are only technically 3 floating choices across the entire team - 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack and 1 Heavy. There is nothing left for that 4th player.

The Force Org before the floating choice is:

1 HQ
0-1 Elites
1-3 Troops
0-1 Fast
0-1 Heavy

So every Ironclad that is counted as an Elite you cannot take a Sterngard Vet Squad (potential scoring unit) and vice versa.

Special Character abilities that alter a Force Org, alter all Force Organizations on a Team from that codex, you cannot opt out of this.

Special Character abilities that have a direct impact during a game (change units to scoring, wargear, bolter drills, etc) only affect the Coalition on the table and only then if they are from the same codex.


Ahh, I'm with you now. This is our first year going to Adepticon...so it's an adjustment/learning process. So another example, if they were to take two HQs that alter FOC (Say a Captain on a bike and a MOF) then they could take bikes as troops along with two ironclads in each army? Thanks for the info.
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Postby Matthias » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:24 pm

AgeOfEgos - that is correct. In regards to the Captain w/ Bike issue - keep in mind that each player only has 3 maximum Troops choices to work with (there is no floating Troop choice). That could create a weird issue where a player who opts to take the floating Fast Attack choice could possibly field 5 Space Marine Bike units and only have 3 'Troop/Scoring units' (the other two being recon/fast attack squads instead of holding/scoring squads).

In these cases - scoring/Troop units would need to be declared at the start of the game (ideally modeled or marked uniquely) and clearly marked on your army list in order to not foster confusion.
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Postby Matthias » Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:36 pm

Ed wrote:I haven't had my coffee yet, so I apologize is this is a daft question:

Space Marine Command squads count as HQ choices in the force Org. They also require that you field a Captain in the same list to field them.

So how does one field a Space Marine Command squad in the team tournament? Can I ignore the pre-requisite of needing the Captain? Can I field one if my other three team members all field Space Marine Captains?

Thanks.

Ed


Ed - perhaps it isn't as clear as it could be - I'll take a stab at rewording that section this evening.

The Team Tournament FOC supersedes normal restrictions. That is:
  1. Any unit designated as a "required" choice (i.e., a "1" or "1+" unit) by a codex becomes an "optional" choice for the Team Tournament (e.g., Emperor's Champion, Fire Warriors, etc.).
  2. This Team Tournament Force Organization supersedes all special rules (e.g. Space Wolves HQ calculations).
In addition the following units from various Codices DO take up the following Force Org slots within the 40K Team Tournament:

  • Dark Angel and Blood Angel Techmarines count as Elites (normal prerequisites apply)
  • Dark Angel Command Squads count as HQ
  • Blood Angels Honour Guards count as HQ
  • A Chaos Greater Daemon counts as HQ
  • Chaos Lesser Daemons count as Troops
  • Chaos Spawn count as Fast Attack
  • Space Marine Honour Guard count as HQ
  • Space Marine Command Squads count as HQ
  • Space Marine Servitors count as Elites
  • The Emperor's Champion counts as HQ (see Clarifications below)


In essence you can ignore the prerequisites for a unit like the Space Marine Command Squad - however the Command Squad DOES count as your one HQ (preventing you from fielding the Captain) and you would have to follow the clarifications regarding the Commander's Heads in the rules (most likely declaring the Company Champion your Commander). Note that Techmarines still require you to field a vehicle from your Elites or Heavy Choices.

Also keep in mind that there are no HQ or Troops floating choices available in the Team Tournament. Each team basically receives 1 Elite, 1 Fast Attack and 1 Heavy to work with.
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Postby Ed » Tue Nov 25, 2008 4:38 pm

Thanks for clearing that up, Matt. :)

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Postby Turtle » Tue Nov 25, 2008 6:41 pm

there is one thing i'm confused on. How do characters with abilities that affect everybody work in a mixed codex army? for example I am playing daemons and my partner for the game is chaos space marines. skarbrand specifically states friend and foe are affected by his ability. do only I benefit from his ability, and not my ally? but both of my opponents always benefit from it?
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Postby Ed » Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:16 am

Turtle wrote:there is one thing i'm confused on. How do characters with abilities that affect everybody work in a mixed codex army? for example I am playing daemons and my partner for the game is chaos space marines. skarbrand specifically states friend and foe are affected by his ability. do only I benefit from his ability, and not my ally? but both of my opponents always benefit from it?


If I had to guess, I would say that the intent of Skarbrand's rule is that it affect everyone, including your partner from a different codex. I guess the same would be true for Epidemius if your partner were playing as CSM Nurgle. But your Fateweaver rule wouldn't affect your partner's CSM Thousand Sons. All of these are my guesses, nothing official obviously. :)

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Postby Werty » Thu Nov 27, 2008 7:31 am

I have another Chaos question. Can daemons use CSM icons to deep strike and vice-versa.
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Postby Matthias » Thu Nov 27, 2008 10:30 am

I am currently away for the holiday and don't have any codices in front of me. I'll get to these questions as soon as I get back.
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Postby Matthias » Sat Nov 29, 2008 11:39 am

Turtle wrote:there is one thing i'm confused on. How do characters with abilities that affect everybody work in a mixed codex army? for example I am playing daemons and my partner for the game is chaos space marines. skarbrand specifically states friend and foe are affected by his ability. do only I benefit from his ability, and not my ally? but both of my opponents always benefit from it?


Ed has it right.

Skarbrand: Skarbrand's ability infects ALL warriors regardless of codex and is an exception to the Single/Mixed Codex rules.

Epidemius: His ability infects ALL warriors bearing the Mark of Nurgle regardless of codex and is an exception to the Single/Mixed Codex rules. Any causualty inflicted by ANY model bearing the Mark of Nurgle counts towards the Tally of Pestilence. This means that if you field Epidemius in a Chaos Daemons list and your Coalition partner (or an enemy player) is fielding Nurgle Space Marines from the Chaos Space Marine, all kills count and all Mark of Nurgle units benefit from the Tally as it grows as long as Epidemius is on the table.

There are a couple of FAQ clarifications to keep in mind that will be published in the AdeptiCon INAT FAQ very shortly, they are:

+CD.52D.01 – Q: If Epidemius’s tally has reached 20+, do ranged attacks from followers of Nurgle ignore armor saves?
A: No, just close combat attacks [clarification].

+CD.52D.02 – Q: Do models that have lost their last wound but have an ability that can bring them back into the game (like Inquisitorial bionics or Necron ‘We’ll Be Back’) count towards Epidemius’s tally?
A: No, only when the models have been removed from the table as casualties do they count towards the tally [clarification].

Fateweaver: His ability follows the Team Tournament rules as written and only allows re-rolls for units originiating from his own codex. So only in a pure Chaos Daemons Coalition would his ability transfer to your Coalition partner.
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