Page 1 of 2

BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:40 am
by BrentS
I want to address this now to put it behind us.

There is no Model Cap for BBB in 2013. Like all tournament decisions, this will be re-evaluated after the event.

Proxy and “count-as” models will be allowed, provided these are discussed with me prior to the event.

This may be an unpopular decision; however, it is the decision by which BBB will live by for this year.

I’ll explain some of my rationale. Please don’t take this as a “defense” or “rebuttal” to why both should be allowed. The army lists that Rob has posted spark these debates but they can be applied to a number of different situations. I see this breaking down into two discussions - Proxy models and Horde lists

Proxy/Count-as Models.
First, one of the biggest benefits of moving away from the Bunker was allowing us to “unshackle” ourselves from some of the Games Workshop rules. This means allowing for the possibility of bringing proxy or count as models from other lines. We all moan about the prices of GW models and using proxies is a way to make the hobby more affordable. As long as suitable proxies are identified and discussed with the tournament organizer prior to the event they can be allowed. I would like to point out that this has been happening for years… and I’m one of the biggest “offenders”. My most enjoyable army was built entirely on the premise of “count as”. I had a 15 model army where only one model actually represented the profile that it was being used for. Now, I took pain staking approaches to ensure that my opponent knew what each and every model represented but this army would not have been possible if it were not for Count as.

I hear the argument that “this model is from a different historical time and shouldn’t be used”. I completely agree IF the model is being used to represent that character. If however, it is being used to proxy for a “captain” in an army that doesn’t exist, well then I will allow it. This also has happened for years. I’ve used my Eorl the Young model as a Captain of Rohan countless times. I’ve seen Halbard used to represent a “Young Aragorn”. These are just two examples off the top of my head.

In regards to proxy models from other lines… I agree this is where it starts to get slippery. However, I stand by my decisions, as long as the model is easily identifiable for what it represents on the battlefield. I have a hard time not allowing it. Again, this is not a new precedence… I’ve done this many times in my own armies. I have Sons of Eorl that started their “life” as Saxon warriors. I have Wose warriors that started as a Zulu warrior. I’ve seen Jeremy take an aquarium toy and turn it into a watcher in the water. I’ve seen historical models used to fill out Rohan armies. I’ve seen Jim Wappel use an Osprey model to represent a Great Eagle. So, I’ll re-iterate, as long as the model is built, painted, converted (or whatever) in order to closely match what the model is there to represent, I have a really hard time saying “No, you can’t do this”

Horde Armies
I know late in the LOME era, Horde armies ruled the day. There was “praise” (by some, not all) that warbands would correct this and right the wrongs of the world. I’m not entirely sure this was their true purpose but regardless, in general, we have seen smaller armies were there were less horde mentalities. I think the other thing that Warbands did which was actually more of a deterrent to hordes is change the way the games are “scored”. There are scenarios now that actually punish large horde armies without elite killing power (I would argue that against an elite army in Lords of Battle the horde faces a huge uphill battle).

Some people hate playing against hordes. However, some people also hate playing against heavy magic armies. There are people that hate playing against elves too… and monsters… Should all of those armies be outlawed? No. In my opinion, these are just different ways to build an army. There are multiple ways to build an army – many of which are “gimmicks” that could be exploited for a variety of reasons. I honestly feel, we have to trust the players to build an army and allow the community to be the police. I truly feel its not my job as a tournament organizer to police this army building. My job is to run a fair tournament which doesn’t favor one style of army over another. So what I have to do is make sure that scenarios are balanced across the event so that Hordes are favored… similarly, I need to ensure that “speed” is favored, and hero centric armies are favored. This is the toughest part of organizing a tournament and the part I worry the most about.

Finally, I want everyone to remember, I always encourage people to be creative and bring lists that will be fun to build, paint, play AND play against. Many people forget that last part (including me). These tournaments are games and we are there to have fun. The LOTR community has been great in general and these events are almost always about having fun and not who wins and loses.

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:49 am
by Lordgoober
I apologize for the heatedness on the other form. but things did seem a little harsh in the other thread. As I mentioned, had we not been at the bunker last year, we could have hashed this out last year and I would have had this theme done with ^_^. Do I expect to win every game with this? no. Am I going to do everything I can to try to give my opponents enjoyable games? yes.

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:08 am
by old coast
That's just great Rob, but I am not going to spend $300 something dollars on a ticket and hotel and work my ass for 4-5 month to build something awesome so you can put close to 100 crappy Wargames Factory plastics on the table (and I say crappy because I have boxes of the models you want to use for my ancients, and I think they're crap, sorry if that offends you.). So you can pull off some "theme" that isnt even really a theme as the available army book profiles DO NOT support it. You could choose to play a friendlier army and one that works within the available book profiles, you are choosing not to. BBB has always had the highest of modeling and sportsmanship standards I find your lists and your plan to implement them, lacking in both departments. These choices are entirely your prerogative.

Brent, in some moment of what I can only call temporary insanity, has decided to let you roll with this- so have fun. Overall I am less concerned about you then I am the slippery slope these type of lax polices create. I have alot of ways to spend my free time, so I have chosen not to play in BBB this year and have asked for a refund and have already gotten it. The rest of the gang can have fun dealing with your "theme" in its appearance and playability.

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:45 am
by griffen127
Ahhhhh Balls. Its hard enough finding people of quality that love the paint and modeling. So I say again. BALLS!!!

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:22 pm
by Lordgoober
I am getting other criticism at this point. I apologize for setting off this firestorm like this. I am switching my army to Last Alliance of Elves and Men vs Sauron and Orcs.

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:34 pm
by Guardian of Ecthelion
OK I am not trying to beat a dead horse.

If I want to use another companies model, I need to have it cleared through Brent first. Example would Jim Wappels eagle--he used a non GW model for Gwahir. So that is OK? THis yrear too.

I do apprecciate the group of players we have and I hope this issue is resolved. I haven't starting planning any army for B3 especially since Frank spilled the beans on my thoughts.

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:15 pm
by BrentS
Guardian of Ecthelion wrote:If I want to use another companies model, I need to have it cleared through Brent first.

Yes. This has always been the case.

Bilbo's Birthday Bash Rules wrote:All models should be taken from the Games Workshop/Citadel Range. Some leeway on model proxying or "counts as" can be used; however, these proxy situations should be discussed with the tournament organizer prior to the event. Use the Contact Info if you have any questions about proxy models.

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:12 pm
by prion2001
John, I hope you will change your mind. IMHO, you are focused on something you can not control (how someone else views theme, modeling, etc.) and letting that control you. For every horde or strange proxy they are going to be awesome proxies (i.e Wappel last year) and cool themes. You are cheating yourself out of a great time, with great people and a chance to share in your love of the asthetics of this hobby with a LOT of people I know you agree have the same attitude towards the hobby as you. And you also leave us with one less awesome example of LotR hobby goodness if you drop.

As for Rob's army idea, I've had a very similar idea for a hobbit army for years now. I always wanted to do a pure Battle of Bywater army to represent the Hobbits' return to the Shire and their rallying of the shire folk. All hobbits, no wizard or other models (I don't like the Gandalf + Sorcerous Blast + Flying Hobbits trick myself). You know me, I hardly think I'd suddenly get ambitious enough to win games by building a killer horde. :oops: For me it would be purely the enjoyment of building and painting the force. At 750, I could still do this but would need to add Dundedain since there are not enough named hobbit heroes to use. Don't know what I would do for the evil side but had thought about combinations of Ruffians, Dundeldnings and Orcs to avoid the need for all those metal Ruffians.

I don't post this to defend Rob and his list only to point out that, given my own thoughts about using Hobbits, I worry my own idea is essentially untenable and something I should put out of my mind?

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:20 pm
by old coast

other than violation of timeline using bullroarer to squeak in an extra 12 hobbits I dont have big problem with the hobbit list "in general" when it was the Legions 70 ish model range- at least he has the real models. that scouring/ ruffians list has all kind of problems, from it even being legal which is matter of debate to most of all the 84 proxy models. that I dont certainly dont want to see at BBB because I see them every other tuesday in my basement in our Dark Ages games.

Alot of talk has gone on today, I'm not happy about No model maximum count and I'm still concerned about the abuse of proxies...and how that will effect the overall armies, my concern its turning into some freakshow with armies you dont recognize because Brents open the door to use whatever cheap models get approval (and there are alot out there) But Brent assures me he going to manage it well, Since Rob has reconsidered his lists, Brent going make sure things still look like Lord of the Rings..

I am at this point. planning on re-registering.

On note, while you cant control what people do, you are the one controls whenever you show up on I mentioned earlier -is not worth all that hobby work to get there to not have the event meet your expectations, I was pretty pumped about the new venue and the 5th year of BBB this year...then the event rules took a serious left turn for me. If you not going to have good time and be all pissed off whats the point? The same thing happened to me with WFB the new rules came out, the will of players implementing the new rules gravitated in the wrong of direction of what interested me about playing the game. so I moved on. I hope that's not the case with LotR
in the end I only really play as an excuse to build and paint new lord of the rings stuff, I've seen everyone really step their game on hobby front over the last 3-4 years ( I have the pictures to back that up that claim ) I really hope thats the direction people keep moving in but things like No model count , excess proxying and the resulting re-emergence of horde armies are, in my opinion antithetical to seeing good looking armies on the field. The best stuff is always in the 20-40 models range, anyway just some insight to where I am coming from on this. I hope i can get over my issues and be there in the fall, I already bought all the stuff and in Jeremy's words is going to be FUBAD, it be a shame if it never leaves my basement.

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:56 pm
by Lordgoober
as a note, the list squeaked in 2 more hobbits %_%

my two lists now are going to be in the realm of 21 models good and probably about 30 models evil, I haven't worked up the points yet.

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:01 am
by BostonNazgul

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:52 am
by Smeagol
Interestingly enough I am dead set against low model count forces. There is no challenge in playing a low model count army for me. It lives or dies by random chance. Smaller elite forces, yes, they are a challenge and don't automatically lose to bad dice for a couple of turns, but hero forces are boring to play against. Twenty models is an arguement not a fight. Forty is bare minimum for me.

I am not a fan of huge hordish forces, but my definition of huge is relative. Go ahead and throw a hundred goblin town goblins into the grinder. They're crappy troops and if you grind them up properly they just go away after getting broken. For me being outnumbered two to one is a tactical challenge. How can I achieve local superiority and get the upper hand before the meat grinder hits. Admittedly I rarely play forces small enough to be outnumbered two to one, but I've done it a couple of times.

I've started playing 1000 point games as a standard and I have found I like them. I've seen plenty of big heroes in my forces and a comfortable model count to keep things tactical. My two proposed forces are pared down to 750 points from 1000. The model count just landed where it did by points and not by design.

I'm less worried about the possible match ups than I am some of the weaknesses in the GW scenarios. Has anyone else noticed the stupidity in getting 1 VP for breaking your opponent AND also being broken? Both players get the point so it's essentially the same if neither of you broke.

Terrain is another concern for me at tournaments. Too little and you're playing WHFB, too much and the T.O. is favoring hero centric forces. Typically BBB has managed a great balance in terms of terrain and theme.

Proxies I'm on the fence about. I much prefer conversions over wholesale replacement with another model range, but I have the income, OCD tendencies and an indulgent wife to allow me that luxury. So while I understand economic concerns, I also like battles in Middle Earth to look like they are occurring in Middle Earth and not downtown Bagdad circa 1200.

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:22 am
by Lordgoober
This may become much more of an issue now in the near future. As I posted in the epic section yesterday, the SG lines are dead. According to this blog post, the culling of the GW lines also extends to the metal from 40k and WFB. I would be unsurprised if this also extended to the metal portions of the SBG line. Metal Faramir's Rangers and Mahud with Blowpipes on foot are already NLA. ... lso-going/

Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 10:09 pm
by prion2001
I don't know though. It will suck but if they no longer make models than I don't think we need to suddenly go find replacements. It's crap but if they leave us with little in the way of models then screw them. A couple proxies (I.e.converted heroes for instance) is fine. But if Mahud, for instance, go away then I guess we loose out and only those who have them or can find them will be able to field that force. If true this sucks as there is certainly a lot I would like to add. But I won't be rushing to buy stuff just to cover the future.


Re: BBB: Model Counts and Proxy Models

PostPosted: Wed May 01, 2013 11:19 pm
by Lordgoober
Mordor Catapult Troll
Mahud w blowpipe on foot
Mahud King Food and Mounted
Harad Chieftain Foot and Mounted
Weathertop Aragorn (alone)
Merry and Pippin 2
Metal Dwarf Bows
Merry and Pippin on Ponies.

these are already gone from availability at this point.