Las Vegas TOS force thoughts

Post and review Lord of the Rings army lists.

Postby Smeagol » Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:34 am

Going through my garage is a bad thing, every bad. My Isengard models are still staring at me and so I dug them out for a quick inventory and got to fiddling with numbers and discovered that I could indeed make a viable Isengard horde. It's softer than your typical Isengard force, but it's also got a lot of the offensive punch Isengard is notorious for.

[Isengard Raiders]
1 Ugluk
9 Uruk-hai Scouts with shield
8 Uruk-hai Scouts with orc bow
8 Feral Uruk-hai

[Legions of Isengard]
1 Uruk-Hai Captain with shield
32 Orc Warriors with spear
16 Uruk-hai Scouts with orc bow


Points = 700
Models = 75
Might = 5

The force has numbers obviously which makes it hard to break. Orc bows are aweful in general, but the Uruk-hai are shooting them so they're accurate and the bowmen can fight better than most. The entire force with the exception of the nine shield bearing scouts and heroes are spear supported.

The two heroes are decent killers once they close to combat and Ugluk is pretty good at keeping the force intact if I remember to keep a sacraficial orc in base contact. That shouldn't be hard since i'll want him spear supported late in the game.

Mobility is an issue, but I can afford to forego bowfire for a few turns in order to get into position. Low defense is another problem, but Defense 4 is not a death sentence in most cases. FV 4 and Strength 4 on the frontline is a great trade off. The Feral Uruk-hai gives this force the ability to crack any point in the opponent's lines.

I'll have to see how well it can stand up to Gary's White Company.
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Postby Smeagol » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:40 pm

There's always a way to make a better mouse trap. Reworking the Uruk-hai force into something more formidable.

Cirith Ungol and Black Gate alliance wrote:Cirith Ungol
1 Mordor Uruk-hai Captain with orc bow
32 Orc Warrior with spear
16 Mordor Uruk-hai with orc bow

Black Gate
1 Mordor Uruk-hai Captain with orc bow
1 Morannon Orc Captain with shield
16 Morannon Orc with shield
8 Mordor Uruk-hai with orc bow

Points Spent = 696
# of Models = 75
Might = 6
Break Point = 38
25% Point = 18
Archers = 26
Heroes = 3
Warriors = 72


It has a maximum model count and still manages to tote in three heroes, each with their own natural contingent. This gives me a really good force for Domination (always my weakest scenario) and still gives me a decent contender (Morannon Orc Captain) for Contest of Champions. Seize the Prize is still a foot race, but that is a problem shared by many other players as well. The modified Seize the Prize is not a problem as this force can play smash mouth with the best of them. Defense 6 opponents are dealt with by the high strength of the fighting line and even my archers are capable of smashing through a tough defensive line. Courage is a problem, but the large model count will help keep the force from being broken which removes the worst of the problem. Twenty six bowmen is almost up to Hobbit horde standards.
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Postby Jobu » Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:34 pm

Mordor Uruk-hai Captain Cirith Ungol Shield; 1
Orc Warrior Spear; 14
Mordor Uruk-hai Shield; 14
Orc Tracker 14
Morannon Orc Captain 1
Orc Drummer 1
Morannon Orc Shield; Spear; 10
Morannon Orc Shield; 10
Orc Tracker Warg; 10

Still 75 models with 24 shots and 3 heroes(although the drummer is not really a hero)
Only 4 might and only courage 4 at it's best.
I have never been fond of uruks with bows, they are d4 and die like flies to other players bows before one can take advantage of their higher fight.
In this list you can keep them behind until you reach combat. the drummer can go with the on foot trackers to get them in position, then you have your mobile hit squad.

Or drop the drummer and the wargs and get a generic wraith ( remember, higher courage than a named one ) that is 2/12/2 to escort your uruk captain in CoC, which I am sure you will see.
24 tracker shots will still hurt. On average 1 D7 fountain guard a turn.
You will get outshot by harad/elves either way unless you skip a couple of more models and get the SL.

Another alternative is to get rid of one orc with spear, some m/w/f on the nazgul(or a couple models) and get an orc with shield and horn. Horns are gold for evil, they will easily save 20pts of models, and if you face AotD they boost your "defense".


Mordor Uruk-hai Captain Cirith Ungol Shield; 1
Orc Warrior Spear; 13
Orc Warrior Shield; 1 Horn; 1
Mordor Uruk-hai Shield; 14
Orc Tracker 14
Morannon Orc Captain Black Gate 1
Morannon Orc Shield; Spear; 10
Morannon Orc Shield; 10
Orc Tracker 10
Ringwraith 1 2/9/1 1
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Postby Smeagol » Mon Apr 11, 2011 9:01 pm

Okay I'm guaranteed I'm going to hell for even considering this force, but it has a nice backstory potential. On paper it looks fairly effective, but I'll have to see it in play to be honest.

Baen and Finlaurë are heroes of mine from a couple storyline campaigns ago. They became reluctant allies in order to rid the Mirkwood of some troublesome Easterlings.

Thranduil's Hall & Erebor
=========================
1 Finlaurë (Wood Elf Captain) with throwing weapons
20 Wood Elf Warriors with wood elf spears
10 Wood Elf Warriors with wood elven spear & bow
1 Baen, son of Drall (Dwarf Captain) with throwing & two handed axes
20 Dwarf Rangers with throwing & two handed axes
10 Dwarf Rangers with dwarf longbow

Points Spent = 700
# of Models = 62
Might = 4
Break Point = 31
25% Point = 15
Archers = 20
Heroes = 2
Warriors = 60

Advantages: A horde, spear support, two handed weapons, loads of deadly accurate shooting with half of them being elven bows, lots of accurate throwing weapons, FV 4+ and two decent fighting heroes, though the dwarf is the tougher of the two in terms of defense. The elves can easily exploit woods and the dwarves can easily exploit rocky ground. The force has a decent courage so wraiths are easier to counter.

Disadvantages: Two different movement values which will make the force tricky to play. The archers are armed with two different bow types which means it's easy to disable any Volley Fire capablility.
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Postby Jobu » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:25 pm

It is 60 points to give your rangers TW while only 40 to give them to the WE. That would give you an extra 20 points to play with. Like upgrade your captain to gimli or dain maybe with durins axe if you can, or your WE captain to legolas.
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Postby Smeagol » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:39 pm

You'd think so wouldn't you.

The Wood Elves are much easier to take out with ranged fire, plus they are in the second rank, in most cases, so they would lose 1" to 2" on their range potential. The heroes are better than many named heroes in the game. Gimli doesn't give me much that the generic dwarf can't already do. A spider queen and/or a wraith will make short work of Gimli or the generic dwarf captain.

Most importantly the story elements of this force are damaged. This force's story is about two unlikely allies who would be just as happy to not to have to be heroes at all. If it weren't for Tai Shan and his easterling warriors attempting to reinforce the orcs of Dol Guldor (and tame a dragon) they wouldn't be allies at all. Of course this is a story for another time.
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Postby Smeagol » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:20 am

Okay I've gone through a lot of models and force configurations. Play tested most of them and found all of them lacking for one reason or another. Of course I'm playing against Gary so I MIGHT be overreacting. :P

In the end I got a chance to finish up a long standing selection of partially painted models and will be playing a 2/3rds newly painted force. Of course 1/3rd of those models still needs to be finished tonight.

The force I'm pretty sure I'm bringing is a Cirith Ungol force. On paper it looks promising for almost all of the scenarios. To Kill a King and Contest of Champions are the two weakest for me, but that's nothing unusual. I thought about putting a Mordor Troll Chieftain, but I'd have to drop a lot of models or swap out the Uruk-hai archers for trackers. Neither seemed like an attractive option to me, though I do love my Mordor Troll Chieftain and he's yet to see service in any of my forces.

[Cirith Ungol]
1 Black Guard Captain
1 Mordor Orc Drummer
1 Mordor Uruk-Hai with orc bow

20 Black Guards of Barad-dur
20 Mordor Orc Warriors with spear
20 Mordor Uruk-hai Warriros with orc bow
1 Mordor Orc Warrior

Points = 700
Might = 4
Models = 64
Break = 32
Rout = 16
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Postby BrentS » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:51 am

Looks nasty. Good combination of high strength, high defense, and high fight models + mobility. I can imagine it would do well in just about every non-hero centric scenario for sure.

I'm only outnumbered 4:1. :shock:
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Postby Smeagol » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:54 am

I have a rules interpretation request into the TOS staff regarding the Mordor Orc Drummer and the Black Guard. Either way they rule will work for me.

If they rule that the Black Guard are Mordor Uruk-hai then my entire force is much more mobile. If they rule that they are not then I have the best of both worlds. I can charge with the Black Guard and I get the speed boost for the Uruk-hai and spear armed orcs in the same turn.

Win-win situation really, but I'd really like to know how I should be applying the Advance special rule to my force for the T.O.S. tournament.
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Postby orcishthug » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:14 am

Right up there with the Watcher list in unpleasantness. I've been critiqued for using too many elites (14 foutain guards in a list, etc.). 20 black guard trumps that and if they come at you with the speed of cavalry....ughh.
Men of Harlech stand ye steady
It cannot be ever said ye
For the battle were not ready
Welshmen never yield
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Postby Smeagol » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:07 am

And normally I would agree with you, but I'm tired of arguing with Romans.

The question of whether they can benefit from the Orc Drummer hasn't been answered. Personally I would be happier if they couldn't. Then I can sound the drum and still initiate a charge with the Balck Guard. Makes it a lot easier to get spear support where I want it as well as setting up the next turns flanking attacks with the other Uruk-hai.

Of course this force has also lost all but one of its games against a generic Gondorian list and that game was a draw.
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Postby Smeagol » Tue Jun 14, 2011 2:54 pm

orcishthug wrote:Right up there with the Watcher list in unpleasantness. I've been critiqued for using too many elites (14 foutain guards in a list, etc.). 20 black guard trumps that and if they come at you with the speed of cavalry....ughh.
Of course Gary suggested I use an updated version of my Watchers list.

1 Haradrim Chieftain with bow
1 Betrayer
1 Dark Marshal

38 Haradrim Warriors with spear
18 Watchers of Karna

Points = 700
Models = 59
Might = 6

Reroll all 1s & 2s to wound at range after hitting on 3+, plus rerolling dice in combat makes the Watchers much more unpleasant than what you and others faced at the Necro. It's all painted I just have to decide if that's what I want to play, but since it's an infantry horde it suffers from lack of speed for Reconnoitre and Seize the Prize. It also is a lightweight in the To Kill a King and Contest of Champions scenarios.

NOTE: I corrected the numbers in the list. I forgot to add in the 40 points for spears which meant this force was over 700 points. That has been corrected.
Last edited by Smeagol on Tue Jun 14, 2011 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BrentS » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:02 pm

Ugh... I don't like that force at all. Wow, that is nasty.
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Postby BostonNazgul » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:51 pm

that is nasty, more power to the harad armies, enough of those short dwarves everyone runs :wink:

I do not think it is light in champion, shoot the enemies to death or make him hide with your watchers then black dart some enemies.

since it seems it will be total throw back scenarios to stock legions, so without some luck you could be facing a major defeat in seize the prize.
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Postby Smeagol » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:58 pm

Depends. Compel is a very useful tool for putting a model into harm's way. Two of them means one of them will likely go off and then you jump the carrier of the item. More likely you shoot the diggers and then compel the remainder off of the objective long enough for the infantry to get there to contest.

The theory has some "what-ifs" (matchup, terrain and dice) in it, but logically it's sound.
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