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LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:07 pm
by Smeagol
The context here is the traditioanl points match tournament format. Other tournament formats such as the "March to Mount Doom", Adepticon's Good & Evil doubles, etc... aren't in the scope of this discussion.

This is a subject that comes up every now and again. This time it's my turn to bring it back up. Now that we've had some experience with the Warbands changes in LOTR I think it's a good time to discuss this topic again. As I've considered the financial, family and work implications of attending the UK GT in February I had also to consider what I would play at 1000 points. Coupled with the fact I feel that 600 points is really too small for LOTR games anymore given the requirement of taking expensive heroes I'm thinking the current 600 point standard is too restrictive. Of course I am not adverse to playing larger forces and I've never been a hero-centric player anyway.

What is a good suggested point limit for US tournament play? At 600 points most Good forces hover in the 30 to 45 model count range, while evil can easily spike to 60+ models. This means that anyone playing a Good force is going to get swamped just as bad as they used to by evil hordes. 700 points is really just a 600 point force with a bigger hero so nothing has really changed there for the side of Good, whereas Evil can purchase more troops or upgrade the horde to something much more unpleasant to face. 1000 points gives lots of leeway for the forces of Good to get bigger heroes and troops to offset the swarm of evil they will be facing. Evil can of course still get bigger and bigger, but the easiest method for controlling evil horde spamming is to reinstate the LOME model count cap.

So what are your thoughts on this subject?

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:58 pm
by BrentS
Smeagol wrote:What is a good suggested point limit for US tournament play? At 600 points most Good forces hover in the 30 to 45 model count range, while evil can easily spike to 60+ models. This means that anyone playing a Good force is going to get swamped just as bad as they used to by evil hordes.


For what its worth, I just crunched the numbers for BBB.

The Good armies scored an average of 42 Battle Points (across 3 games) while the evil armies scored 36 Battle Points. This would suggest, at least for the 24 armies of each type that were played this weekend, the Good Armies outplayed the evil armies, despite the apparent model count differential.

Of the top 6 battle scores (3 games) the good armies had 5 of them... and taking Kyle out of the equation (having the two highest BPs for each army type), the next four highest BPs were good armies.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:11 pm
by BostonNazgul
I am all for more point values as you will get to see often not used heroes. Even with the new deployment, a lot of games still went close to time, granted that time was now a 2 hour window.

Anything more than 700 and I think it would put a wrench in organizers immediate agendas. There was a great diversity in armies and nothing out of control with theme issues. smaller armies were more popular across the board. even with a goblin spam at 600 including 50% prowlers and king, you only hit 65 which is the same as lome.

no longer can you uruk swarm or morannon orc swarm so it just comes down to hero selection.

From this weekend I think it balanced well with the about average good heroes, grimbold, theodred, faramir, gimli, etc being able to kick the evil captains butts. depending if the evil player sacrificed hero points for say, a shadowlord.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:09 am
by Smeagol
At 600 points it is possible to get fifty-two models using Morannons or Uruks as the core. Especially with Mordor.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:19 am
by Lordgoober
There is ONE 65 model army available for Good at the 600 point level and if we hadn't been at the bunker for B3 and I could have used non GW models for most of my evil force then I WOULD have used it.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:36 pm
by griffen127
I think the lower model count is fine. I believe this will require a new outlook on list building. Wanting to take only captains and max guys is NOT how lotr is supose to be played. This is why IMO they changed rings to what it is now. More about heros leading troops not about 1 man leading a horde. Much less one man that is just a no body captain. Yes there are lists out here that can max but by in large It's not hat big a deal. I played a 33 model list against an 60+ fig horde in a get off the board game against the second highest battle score player so it's not a push over I Played the game ended26 points to 1. So I believe size in the game in not all that big. With that said I would be happy to play larger games with some added rules.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:49 pm
by Smeagol
Okay. Who would field Aragorn (any flavour) when he's functionally 1/3rd your point limit? Big heroes are hurt by the smaller point value in my opinion. You cannot field anything except five of the big heroes at 600 points and they will rarely won games due to the outnumbering issue. Numbers are important and heroes are not capable of competing by themselves, which is what LoTR versions before the points match system was introduced was all about. Heroes are no longer anything more than delivery systems for troops and/or point sinks.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:56 pm
by Dragi
I would field Aragorn at any points besides 350. Of course I love Aragorn and field him no matter what but lower numbers gives the player more practice with their force and familize themselves with their rules.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:07 pm
by Smeagol
One of the reasons I love The March to Mount Doom format. You can field the seldom seen models and still have good games. I agree with Kyle that the game should also be about the heroes, but I don't see that in the points match format. Points match games reward numbers which I have seen demonstrated time and again.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:33 pm
by BrentS
Smeagol wrote:Okay. Who would field Aragorn (any flavour) when he's functionally 1/3rd your point limit? Big heroes are hurt by the smaller point value in my opinion. You cannot field anything except five of the big heroes at 600 points and they will rarely won games due to the outnumbering issue. Numbers are important and heroes are not capable of competing by themselves, which is what LoTR versions before the points match system was introduced was all about. Heroes are no longer anything more than delivery systems for troops and/or point sinks.


John Humphrey brought Aragorn, Isildur's Heir in his good army.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:27 pm
by griffen127
Same can be said about the balrog. I've played many games with the new rules and good does fine even against hordes. As Brent said good out scored evil across the board. Who are u playing that is causing the good to not ever win? And what are they playing. I cannt see the horde being a big deal. Sounds like someone doesn't want to play in the spirt of the game. People that only play like that are babies. Don't play them. Either they will change or not play.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:28 pm
by griffen127
Like Brent said John brought them and he got 4th.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:09 am
by old coast
Aragorn kicked ass, three games...he never took a wound that I recall...he slaughtered everyone he went up against in 3 games including being surrounded and trapped at least once by the Goblin King and his horde, that free point of Might is very powerful, personally I cant imagine fielding pure Grey Company without him..there just arent enough Heroes in the list, I guess you go Arathorn/ Halbarad and spam RotN/ Dunedain and Rangers...but you are really just swapping out bodies for one guy that does the job of 10. Halbarad was damn impressive for 65 points too... :D My 30 model GC army played way better than my Angmar list...granted I was pretty rusty in game 1, and Rob K came out with all Corsairs guns blazing ( or should I say -throwing Knives blazing) but I'd play that game again anytime.

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 10:11 am
by Smeagol
griffen127 wrote:Same can be said about the balrog. I've played many games with the new rules and good does fine even against hordes. As Brent said good out scored evil across the board. Who are u playing that is causing the good to not ever win? And what are they playing. I cannt see the horde being a big deal. Sounds like someone doesn't want to play in the spirt of the game. People that only play like that are babies. Don't play them. Either they will change or not play.

Can't you stay civil ever?

Re: LOTR point values for tournaments

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:44 am
by griffen127
You think that was uncivil? I can asure you that is civil. I'm making a point if you are playing someone that cannot play in the spirt of the game and they are unbeatable. Talk to them explain the problem then don't play them, if they pick not to change. Whats uncivil about that?