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LOTR:SBG Indy GT FAQ Discussion

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:24 pm
by BrentS
Starting in 2011, a small group has put together a LOTR:SBG Indy GT FAQ document. This document is hosted here:

<edit - original link removed as document has been updated below>

The intention is for this to be a "living" document that will be updated periodically with FAQ rulings. This document was first created using the Adepticon FAQ that Jamie had been compiling over the years. With the addition of the new White Dwarf rules and the discussion on the forums, it became clear that additional FAQs may be needed as house rules for tournament.s Adepticon will be using this document moving forward as its "house rules" for the LOTR tournaments. I suspect that other tournaments will also likely use it but there certainly isn't an obligation.

I figured we could use this thread to discuss the FAQ and see if there were other topics that needed to be addressed. As you look through the FAQ, you'll see that many (if not most) of the supplements do not have additional FAQs at this time.

EDIT: Mar 16
Version 1.1 of the FAQ has been issued:

http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/LOTRSBGIndyFAQv1.1.pdf

This version addresses new questions (and answers) that were collected since the first version was published earlier this year. The new questions (and answers) have been marked with an asterix.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:34 pm
by BostonNazgul
cool beans

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:48 pm
by prion2001
Brent, thanks for the work on compiling, formatting and adding the new rules. It looks great and I know it was a big job.

Jamie

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:02 pm
by Smeagol
Good job. I disagree with one of the answers, but that's fine. I'm not a T.O. and it makes the force I would play a lot more powerful as a result.

There are two typos on page 24.

The heralds Q&As are missing the "A." part of their anwers. This is actually a formatting issue rather than a typo.


The last question uses "form" when it should use the word "from".

Lastly:
Can Druzhag's Enrage Beast spell and Special Rules affect wargs that being ridden (AKA warg riders).

Enrage Beast [WD 352 - page 47]:
"This power can be used against a single Bat, Warrg or Spider model. If the power is successfully used, the target becomes enraged - its Fight, Strength, Attacks and Courage are increased by 3 until the end of the fight phase. The enraged model suffers a Strength 10 hit at the end of the Fight phase, to represent the severe exhaustion brought on by its efforts."

Courage Tests [Rulebook page 34]:
"In the case of mounted warriors only the rider needs to test - mounts do not need to make a Courage test so long as they have a rider."

Cavalry [Rulebook page 48]:
"We refer to all mounted models as cavalry. Cavalry are usually mounted on horses, but Warg Riders are also cavalry."

Cavalry & fights [Rulebook page 50]:
"...the rider can always use the Fight, Strength and/or Attack characteristics of the mount instead of his own..."

Warg Riders (or in my case Orc Trackers) ride wargs. Druzhag's spells affect wargs. So by extension the mounts are affected by his spells. No rules issue here.

If I cast the spell on a warg ridden by an orc. The Warg becomes FV 6, Str 7, A 4 and Courage 5. On a charge the cavalry model will get an additional attack and will potentially do double strikes. Still no issue as far as I'm concerned.

The warg's boosted courage is of no consequence as the ridden warg will never use its courage value. So no issue with the warg's higher courage value.

Where things potentially start to get sticky is as follows:
The Enraged Beast spell states "the enraged model suffers a Strength 10 hit at the end of the Fight phase" and cavalry are considered to be single models. So does that Strength 10 hit apply to the mount (warg) part of the model or can it be applies to either part of the model? My personal thought is that only the mount (warg) part of the cavalry model takes the hit as only the warg is affected by the spell. If the warg dies then the rider is thrown as normal of course.

A warg's courage value is equal to 2 or to Druzhag's courage (4) if it is within 12" of him. If under the enraged beast spell and within 12" of Druzhag does the warg have a courage of 5 or 7? The spell says the models courage is increased by 3, Druzhag's special rules states that all wargs use his Courage when within 12" instead of their own. I can go either way on this, though is sounds like you increase the Courage of 4 (Druzhag's courage) by three when under the effects of the spell. Which would make the enraged Warg a 7 Courage. Very useful when trying to charge terror causing critters (especially wraiths) with a warg.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:35 pm
by BrentS
Smeagol wrote:Good job. I disagree with one of the answers, but that's fine. I'm not a T.O. and it makes the force I would play a lot more powerful as a result.

I'm curious which one you disagree with - send me a PM if you don't mind.

Smeagol wrote:Lastly:
Can Drzhag's Enrage Beast spell and Special Rules affect wargs that being ridden (AKA warg riders).


I meant to include that one and completely forgot. I'll get that in the next update along with the formatting/typos.

Thanks!

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:16 pm
by Smeagol
Lothlorien cavalry movement through woods. Everyone is completely disregarding the woodland creature rule they also have. You cannot move more than 6" through woods if you are a woodland creature.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:44 pm
by prion2001
Smeagol wrote:Lothlorien cavalry movement through woods. Everyone is completely disregarding the woodland creature rule they also have. You cannot move more than 6" through woods if you are a woodland creature.


This one came up shortly after the release and if I recall their was no concensus on the woodland creature part of the rule. I think we went with the idea that the intent of the woodland creature rule was that it allowed models to move normally.

This is one of those that can certainly be re-opened for discussion. Brent, should we start a separate thread for this one?

Jamie

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:09 pm
by BrentS
I remember that discussion now. I'm always open to a healthy debate on rules interpretations if you want to start a new thread on that topic.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:28 pm
by Yakthor
Brent, thanks for the great work on the FAQ.

Being relatively newer to the game than most people posting here I do have a few suggestions for additional FAQ's:

The One Ring:
- Please state that Command/Compel spell reduces the victims fight to 1, makes him roll only one die in combat and not strike blows just as transfix does. The wording that the victim can do nothing further as described in transfix did not lead me to think the 'other' affects of transfix also applied until it came up in a tournament.

- Can might be used by a Hero who is volley firing to modify the to hit and wound rolls of his volley fire shot?
- If a player adding a Hero to a volley fire rolls all his to hit dice at once, using a separate color die for Hero, who decides where to place the Heroes' hit? As the hits are supposed to be taken every other starting with the player being shot at can the player who is firing decide the order the hits are placed so that they can be sure to place the Heroes hit? Should this be house ruled that the Hero is always the first hit to be placed, or the last hit to be placed, or something else to clarify this? I've seen (heard) this become a discussion point at I think 4 of the 5 'big' tournaments I went to last year. Always resolved amicably, but could still use a ruling before hand.

Galadhrim Host WD 354
Rumil's Swift Parry:
- Does this only apply to the roll to win the fight? Or also any rolls to wound?

Reinforcements WD 352
Amdur's Herald of Victory special rule:
- Does Amdur himself get the benefits of a banner for his own rule?
- Please clarify that Khamul the Easterling is an Easterling as well as a Nazgul, and therefore does treat Amdur as a banner if within range.

In Sauron's Sinister Service WD 358
- Black Guard can be taken in a "Morannon" army, I'm assuming this is being counted as a "Black Gate" army as there is no "Morannon" army list.

Reinforcements WD 370
- Cave Drake's A Cornered Beast rule. Do the models within an inch of the Drake take the strength 4 hit before they roll for wounding the Drake, and therefore if the S4 hit kills them they don't get to roll for wounds? If they get to roll wounds before they take the S4 hit and kill the Cave Drake, do they still take the S4 hit since the Cave Drake is dead? This is simply an order resolution question, but could be confusing. And as nice a figure as the Cave Drake is I'm betting we'll see one in a tournament before the year is out.


Looking at how disjointed my post is makes me appreciate the work Brent has put into formatting the pdf. Thanks again Brent.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:43 pm
by Gartl
A warg's courage value is equal to 2 or to Druzhag's courage (4) if it is within 12" of him. If under the enraged beast spell and within 12" of Druzhag does the warg have a courage of 5 or 7? The spell says the models courage is increased by 3, Druzhag's special rules states that all wargs use his Courage when within 12" instead of their own. I can go either way on this, though is sounds like you increase the Courage of 4 (Druzhag's courage) by three when under the effects of the spell. Which would make the enraged Warg a 7 Courage. Very useful when trying to charge terror causing critters (especially wraiths) with a warg.


I would think the Warg courage would be five (5), 2 + 3. The warg could use Druzhag's courage value, but it is only a four (4). The spell increases the warg's courage, not Druzhag's. As the rule state's they can use his courage value, it would not be increased by the spell (which is already horribly overpowered).

And there was no consensus on the Elven mounts. I happen to believe the wording from the original rule was written as it was because there was only infantry with woodland creature rule. It makes very little sense from any other standpoint. However, Tim has spoken with a high up GW employee that it is limited to six inches and from a purely strict interpretation of the rules he is correct.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:28 am
by Smeagol
Yakthor wrote:- Can might be used by a Hero who is volley firing to modify the to hit and wound rolls of his volley fire shot?
Yup. The hero can always modify their own die rolls with Might.

Yakthor wrote:Reinforcements WD 352
Amdur's Herald of Victory special rule:
- Does Amdur himself get the benefits of a banner for his own rule?
Yes, He's an Easterling.

Yakthor wrote:- Please clarify that Khamul the Easterling is an Easterling as well as a Nazgul, and therefore does treat Amdur as a banner if within range.
Yes, He's an Easterling. This was specifically stated in the rule for the War Priest fury spell.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 1:31 am
by Smeagol
Gartl wrote:I would think the Warg courage would be five (5), 2 + 3. The warg could use Druzhag's courage value, but it is only a four (4). The spell increases the warg's courage, not Druzhag's. As the rule state's they can use his courage value, it would not be increased by the spell (which is already horribly overpowered).
A warg's Courage is 2 except when they are within 12" of Druzhag at which point their use his courage value and not their own. So 7 is the correct number when within 12" of Druzhag and under the Enraged Beast spell.

Gartl wrote:And there was no consensus on the Elven mounts. I happen to believe the wording from the original rule was written as it was because there was only infantry with woodland creature rule. It makes very little sense from any other standpoint. However, Tim has spoken with a high up GW employee that it is limited to six inches and from a purely strict interpretation of the rules he is correct.

It was also admitted that it was probably an oversight. Of course they haven't Errated the rule so it stands as written.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:54 am
by BostonNazgul
And as nice a figure as the Cave Drake is I'm betting we'll see one in a tournament before the year is out.


shhhhhhh it is supposed to be a secret!

although if I manage to finish a 60+ model army from scratch, in half a year, with almost 100% conversions and a slow painting method, finding a job, and potentially relocating; then there is something wrong with me.

You all maybe safe for this year.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:57 am
by Smeagol
I have two on my painting table. :P

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 4:03 pm
by Gartl
A warg's Courage is 2 except when they are within 12" of Druzhag at which point their use his courage value and not their own. So 7 is the correct number when within 12" of Druzhag and under the Enraged Beast spell.


No, the spell does not increase Druzhag's courage value. They use their courage value, which when under the effects of the spell is five, or they use Druzhag's courage value when they are within 12" of him, which is four. The spell specifically increases their courage value, not Druzhags, thus it will be either 4 (Druzhags) or five (their own with the spell increase). I can see where you are saying that Druzhag's courage value "becomes" their own courage value and then you increase it via the spell, but I do not see it that way. They "use" his courage value as it is, which is not boosted, and thus they lose the benefit of the spell. In your interpretation the spell becomes even more over powered than it already is (I think most everyone can agree that it is very overpowered).