Helm's Deep....................?

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Should we include Elves at Helm's Deep?

Yes
9
75%
No
3
25%
 
Total votes : 12

Helm's Deep....................?

Postby JLeong » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:39 pm

Hey folks. Not quite yet off the high from that Pelennor Fields game, Drew and I stuck around the bunker for a while. I remember that people sounded interested in doing large games again, and one of the games that stuck out in my mind was Helm's Deep. With a healthy number of Rohirrim, orcs, and Uruk-hai (well, uruks coming soon) it sounded like fun. I found out that there is a customer who visits the bunker that actually owns a large Helm's Deep table. He has been trying to promote specialist games, so I imagine that is the reason why we (or probably just me, Idk) haven't heard of him. Tom from the staff there said that he might be willing to loan the bunker the table for a day, and perhaps participate himself (I would). If that doesn't work out, I know that Brent and I each have a Helm's Deep wall set (the one GW made) and that Jamie and I have the warhammer fortress walls and towers. I imagine we'd be able to muster the terrain as well as the models to pull off the game. What do you guys think?
One of the things that made the P.F. game go off so well in my mind was the division of the board. Instead of having one big mosh-pit, each quadrant of the board had its own objective, and after achieving it, could then move to other board sections. The way I thought we might divide the game for Helm's Deep would be to start with two scenarios: "The Deeping Wall" and "The Gatehouse" from the original Two Towers rulebook. I'm not the biggest fan of the scenarios in TTT journey supplement, well at least not when they are compared to the TT rulebook scenarios. The Deeping wall and the Gateway focus upon two different sections of the fortress. They also might help us to determine when certain models can move to different parts of the board, ie: After turn 6, Aragorn Legolas, and Gimli can move to the Gatehouse side from the deeping wall. Each scenario sets a specific turn limit to each game. I don't remember exactly, but I think the time limit on TDW (deeping wall) is 10 turns, while the Gateway is 15. After that we would be able to redeploy for two more scenarios: "Theoden rides out" and "The Relief of Helm's Deep." These scenarios are also turn-based, and they can be played easily at the same time. Where miniatures are concerned, I believe we have enough riders of rohan (I'm in the middle of painting some up myself) warriors of rohan, and uruks to pull this off. The question lies in the elves. I personally have some 36 high elves, Haldir, and about 8 wood elves in armor. Do we have an issue with using plastic high elves instead of metal wood elves?
Let me know what you guys think of this idea, and Im sorry for the long-winded post :lol:
-Josh
Last edited by JLeong on Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby knitemare » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:01 pm

I know who you are talking about and I talked to him about it on Saturday. He said he would be willing to donate the terrain for the scenario if people were going to show up. I'm sure I'll see him at the Bunker tomorrow and I'll ask him about it. I would definitely get in on that.
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Postby chicagoSWANknights » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:15 pm

well,
i have about 13 armoured wood elves as well as armoured haldir, given some time i could possibly get more. the only problem i see in using high elves is that their profiles are different.a wood elf with armour has a defense of 4, whereas a high elf with armour has a defense of 5. doesn't sound much different, but uruk-hai have a better time with killing armoured wood elves then armoured high elves.
but i would also like to do the more traditional way for the seige, such as eomer being at helm's deep and erkenbrand coming to aid them. i don't mind keeping the elves, but that i would like to do. but yeah, that's about all i have.

alex
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Postby JLeong » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:50 pm

Very cool, thanks for the info guys. I hadn't even thought of doing the siege "by the book" (haha, that still gets me from time to time) but it's definitely a good idea. It may help to compensate for our lack of wood elves.
What I meant by "using high elves" was using high elf models instead of wood elf models. We would still use the wood elf profile, but the models would be easier to obtain.
What do you guys think? Do the scenarios sound good? Are there any others you have to suggest, etc?
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Postby JLeong » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:35 pm

I just realized that not everyone knows or remembers what the scenarios I listed are lol. I haven't been able to find my TTT rulebook for quite some time, so I tried tracking some of the scenarios down on google.
I only found "The Gateway," but I'll be getting my hands on a new TTT rulebook (possibly the boxed set) soon.
http://thewarofthering.uk.games-worksho ... gateway/1/
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Postby chicagoSWANknights » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:47 pm

just a thought, we could just make up our own scenarios, seeing as sometimes the books aren't always fair on the points values. just a thought. if u want i could try writing them. let me know
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Postby knitemare » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:22 pm

chicagoSWANknights wrote:just a thought, we could just make up our own scenarios, seeing as sometimes the books aren't always fair on the points values. just a thought. if u want i could try writing them. let me know


I'm always all for community built scenarios. There is no need to stick solely to the pre-written items supplied with the game.
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Postby JLeong » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:06 pm

I'm always all for community built scenarios. There is no need to stick solely to the pre-written items supplied with the game.


Definitely! I just naturally gravitated toward the scenarios from TTT rulebook b/c they're old favorites of mine.
chicagoswanknights: if you want, take a shot at writing some scenarios! Either post them here or pm me, whatever you feel like. I like the idea of breaking the siege into different parts, take a shot!
Anyone else that has scenario ideas (it's just a little bit important :lol: ) post here.[/quote]
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Postby chicagoSWANknights » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:08 pm

alrite, u got it
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Postby prion2001 » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:05 am

I personally would love to do a big Helms Deep battle. I was looking at the Two Towers Journey book after this weekends game. You could easily do several of the scenarios as one big battle, which is one suggestion the book makes.

I do agree that separating the battlefield a bit would help, like it did with the Pellenor game. Maybe have commanders in charge of certain parts of the battle and their forces stay there. After certain objectives are met then maybe forces can be redeployed to other parts of the battle.

I have no problem with our own army compositions or scenarios although it may be easier to base things off the book scenarios, at least as a starting point.

One other idea I had was to do the siege AND on a separate table, have Erkenbrand (or Eomer if you prefer) fighting their way to the relief of Helm's Deep. I think there is a scenario like this but does tie directly to the Siege. Might be another way of dividing the battle a bit.

Later,

Jamie
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Postby knitemare » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:34 am

Can someone list all of the armies that take part in the battles? I think I'm going to have to build a new force (only 500 points of goblins right now) and I'd like to put together one I can use.
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Postby JLeong » Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:07 pm

One other idea I had was to do the siege AND on a separate table, have Erkenbrand (or Eomer if you prefer) fighting their way to the relief of Helm's Deep. I think there is a scenario like this but does tie directly to the Siege. Might be another way of dividing the battle a bit.

I agree, a siege as well as a more conventional battle might be the best way to go. maybe something like reconnoiter?

Something we really ought to do is decide which version of Helm's Deep to play: Helm's Deep from the film or Helm's Deep from the book. Something that was proposed earlier was to combine them: have the Fellowship and Rohirrim plus a small number of elves, but still include Eomer and his men.
The last of these I like the best. I think it accommodates our model collections the best.

As far as participants go, we will need:

Defenders/Good: Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Haldir, Theoden, Gamling, Eomer, Gandalf the White, a captain of rohan
Warriors of Rohan, Riders of Rohan, Haldir's Wood elves with bows and/or elven blades, rohirrim banner, and a wood elf banner.

For Evil, we will need:
Uruk-Hai captains, a shaman or two, LOTS of Uruk-hai warriors, siege ladders, siege balistae, battering rams, demolition teams, some dunlandings, a few warg riders, and possibly one or two Uruk named heroes (possibly new heroes of our own).

I was reading Siege of Gondor earlier, focusing on "The Defenses Must Hold" scenario. This scenario involved the entire fortress at once; on each major section of the fortress (The Deeping wall, the Deepign wall gate, the main gatehouse, the courtyard, and the hornburg) there was placed an objective marker. After 15 turns elapse, whoever holds more objectives wins. This might be a kind of game to consider, who knows?

Let's keep the ideas flowing!
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Postby BrentS » Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:46 pm

JLeong wrote:Defenders/Good: Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Haldir, Theoden, Gamling, Eomer, Gandalf the White, a captain of rohan
Warriors of Rohan, Riders of Rohan, Haldir's Wood elves with bows and/or elven blades, rohirrim banner, and a wood elf banner.

Let's keep the ideas flowing!


If we are going to include the book portions, the Erkenbrand should be used too.
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Postby JLeong » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:02 pm

Oops, forgot Erkenbrand :lol:
Also, I read online that Gandalf didn't bring Erkenbrand and an army of cavalry, but infantry. Can we get a Tolkien scholar to confirm that one?
I think we'd be better off using cavalry, but what do you folks think?
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Postby knitemare » Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:18 pm

Everything can die. Cavalry, infantry. The blade and bow care not, for they are mightier then both.

I see it like this: Someone plans the scenario and the rest of us show up and play. If you have put one of us at a severe disadvantage it will probably be quite realistic and only excellent strategy (and dice rolls) will overcome.
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