New releases and Adepticon Poll

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Should we stick with the current Adepticon Rules (i.e. Legions) for 2012?

Yes. I already have a plan and don't want to mess it up
3
14%
Yes. I don't mind changing but I'd rather wait until we've had more time with the new books
9
43%
No. We should use the new books as long as there are no major changes
4
19%
No. We should use the new books regardless of how different they are
5
24%
 
Total votes : 21

Postby Lordgoober » Thu Jan 26, 2012 11:16 pm

Actually Jamie, I think the point is moot because IIRC the Adepticon deadline for rules changes is Feb 1.
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Postby Bart » Fri Jan 27, 2012 9:11 am

If the rumor is true that the point cost for the models is not (significantly) different and that the core rules stay the same, you might have the option to have both systems at the same time.
Bit like the armylist of the wood elves: you can chose to use the newer WD list or the old LOME list, but you cannot mix the two.
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Postby Smeagol » Fri Jan 27, 2012 11:57 am

Force organization is the biggest change. The one hero for twelve models has a big impact on almost every force I've seen played. Hobbits and Grey Company being the exceptions.
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Postby Lordgoober » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:28 pm

Yeah. I've just gotten a numenorean force and luckily there are some unpainted figs in the lot so I can tweak some of the paintjobs to represent captains if needed.

That being said, it looks like my 4 converted dwarven hornblowers (drummers) may actually see play soon.
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Postby febber » Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:00 pm

Keep in mind that if you go with a new rule set and there are significant changes, you are buying yourself a lot of rules issues w/o time to sort them out in advance.
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Postby griffen127 » Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:18 pm

My BOY BLUE!! has a point. Its to soon to use them. IMO
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Postby old coast » Sat Jan 28, 2012 8:35 pm

I know you guys say that as a pragmatic point, and I agree as a knee jerk reaction however the rules will be out next Saturday and it will be 10 weeks till until Adepticon that's a long time to absorbing the new books, inevitably retooling list , going over new army rules.

With what we see now, I have to vote

*No. We should use the new books as long as there are no major changes*

considering at 600 points I like some the lists I am seeing better than what have been the tourney standards, I'm thinking that with out some ambush caveat we dont know yet, we will all *want* to use the new rules.

I went thru this with 8th Edition in WFB and it sucked playing a tourney with 7th Ed rules months after the 8th edition rules were released because although common wisdom was people wouldnt be ready, but they were- as everyone moved to the new rules immediately to get a handle on them , its just human nature when it comes to these things and you're into it, to want to *dig in* In LotR's current case these are'nt really rules changes so much as Army Organization. 10 weeks is ton of time...for that

I'd still leave the old rules in effect for TT since people do build specifically for it but would change the Singles to the new system.

I can roll either way myself, but past experience tells me if we stick to the old system, in the end we'll wish we did not. ( again outside some GW ambush we dont know about)
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Postby prion2001 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:08 am

Got the white dwarf and a quick look through. I'm now much more excited about the new LotR push but still concerned about it for tournaments. I realized, this is probably why I was a little put off at first.

I know people thing this is a minor change but consider these issues from a tournament standpoint. People have been planning for Adepticon since November or before (we sold out in November). For some, changing their list may be neccessary and I think having to buy and paint more heroes plus purchase new books (all five if you want to be up to speed on the enemy) in two months is asking alot.

Next, what about the new models, new upgrades and new rules? How do these work? Are they balanced? Are there loopholes and issues? How do we know any of this without having actual books (not a WD battle report) and time to play these in real tournament, timed games?

Then there are scenarios and the victory point system. First, I'm only guessing this based on the White Dwarf, but the scnearios are different and especially the victory points. How do we incorporate this into our rules when organizers have already developed a total point system based on previous scenarios and victory conditions? Plus we have no idea how balance these scenarios are (although I'm sure they won't need tweeks, just like the ones that were in Legions) :wink:

Finally, what about allies? First, without the books I can't be certain of anything about how forces are built. But, based on the WD, it appears there are no real restrictions. I'm sure no one would exploit that loophole to build a killer cheese list with heroes and warriors from completely out of period and/or fluff lists just to win. :twisted: If this lack of restrictions is true I feel I'd have to do some real soul searching, discussions with players and test games before I could decide whether I, as an organizer, should create my own restrictions, judge theme more harshly, etc.

So, I love the new stuff and flaws or not I'm sure it will either be the tournament standard in the future, but I think the changes neeed more time to be reviewed, discussed and assimilated then the two months we have. The Team Tournament Rules (and actually all Adepticon Rules) have the following disclaimer: "No fundamental rules changes will be made after 2/1/2012." I guess the key to me is the word (Fundamental). These new books will fundamentally change the way we play point match games (i.e. tournaments) which means they will fundamentally change the rules we have created for the 2012 events (they are created only the Championship ones didn't get posted due to some miscommuncation). We could change the rules before Feb 1sst but we'd be doing that based on internet rumor, a few pages of a WD and speculation. I don't feel comfortable with that.

This is just my thought process on this great new release from a tournament organizer standpoint. An official annoucement will get made once I talk with some folks at Adepticon who have dealt with these sorts of issue before. I know, whatever decision gets made, someone will be unhappy.

Jamie
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Postby Lordgoober » Sun Jan 29, 2012 9:53 am

well, speaking from experience last year helping on the WFB side, the O+G book came out too late to officially be allowed in Adepticon but some people still brought 8e O+G lists and nothing else so we pretty much had to let them play as is.

That being said, I've got 2 of the books (Men and Fallen Realms) preordered at the bunker and then I'm going to try to grab Free Kingdoms and Mordor from Games Plus as soon as they have them available. Jamie, pm me if you want me to give you a ring when they have them available so we can start looking at these? If this was the old days when the black boxes were around we wouldn't be having these issues.
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Postby prion2001 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:07 am

Lordgoober wrote:well, speaking from experience last year helping on the WFB side, the O+G book came out too late to officially be allowed in Adepticon but some people still brought 8e O+G lists and nothing else so we pretty much had to let them play as is.


Well, I'm not sure I would have that view if we stick with the rules as they are written for Adepticon. There are clear building rules and books that are allowable. Having a new army book shouldn't change anything unless we officially change the rules to include it and exclude everything else. Also, this reminds me that we are assuming all possible current lists and books are included in these new books. I assume they are but who knows? We can only guess.

That being said, I've got 2 of the books (Men and Fallen Realms) preordered at the bunker and then I'm going to try to grab Free Kingdoms and Mordor from Games Plus as soon as they have them available. Jamie, pm me if you want me to give you a ring when they have them available so we can start looking at these?


Thanks but I'm pre-ordering the three I need for my current and near furture list and the include some of those you listed. I don't plan to order all 5 at this stage as I don't think myself OR Adepticon should shoulder the burden of GW's release schedule.

If this was the old days when the black boxes were around we wouldn't be having these issues.

Exaclty why I was initally pissed. As a player this release is cool news. As a T.O. it's a bg headache and it would be nice to get some advance views so I could plan accordingly. But, I've resigned myself to the fact that GW corporate doesn't give a crap so the only people I'm worried about our you guys (the potential Adepticon players). I want our events to be fair and fun, which doesn't always mean following GW blindly down their chosen path from day one.
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Postby Lordgoober » Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:26 am

Sadly for me I actually have forces from 4 of the 5 books (I don't have moria or angmar stuff) so I need to get those 4 books. Of the new models, I'm probably going to need to get one of the Gondor commander boxes at some point for that new Knight guy.
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Postby Shaggrudd Dethblasta » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:04 pm

How about this idea for all tournaments from here out. If you don't like GW 's army composition, come up with your own army composition rules that the community likes that they can download for a tournament, and tell GW to go blow it. Its your tournament not theirs. Read between the lines. They are forcing you to have one character for every twelve troops so you have to go out and buy their overpriced finecast miniatures. That's what it's really about.
"Why can't you dig how beautiful and righteous it is", Oddball
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Postby jlong05 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 6:40 pm

While I am under no illusion that GW is not in it for the money, I do not see how this new composition rule is designed to sell their fine at models. I think that is a shortsighted view. The new composition does help clean up some of the dumber lists we see(such as the min/max bs played in almost every tournament now). It isn't perfect, but it does help make the players bring some leadership to the horde armies.

I am most interested in the ally system and how that will work. Until we have the books though we can only speculate. I have a feeling though that even some of the recent lists we have seen will still not be possible und the new rules once we see how things work out. Only time will tell though as we all have a week till we can get the new books.

Personally, I can't wait to get the new books and play around to see how my armies are impacted. I almost guarantee my past armies are all not possible now with the exception of my GC list since its filled with hers to begin with. But I know my goblin list for gathering won't be valid as well as pretty sure my fiefdoms list for last year is out. My AotD list may be possible due to Aragorn but that was such a small list anyway, although it could be a issue with dead not being possible using other heros. Who really knows.
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Postby BrentS » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:15 pm

jlong05 wrote:I am most interested in the ally system and how that will work. Until we have the books though we can only speculate. I have a feeling though that even some of the recent lists we have seen will still not be possible und the new rules once we see how things work out. Only time will tell though as we all have a week till we can get the new books.


Based on what I read in White Dwarf, the ally system will be such that any good army can be allied together (like WoTR). It looks to me that you start with a leader, form his warband and then start adding additional warbands of the same alignment (regardless of which book or list) they come from. Based on this, it is theoretically possible to have the wacky combos like Aragorn and Elendil. While I liked the theming element in LOME, I also like the flexibility.

As I've said before, it will be up to tournaments to enforce theming. From my perspective theming will be heavily scored at BBB.
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Postby prion2001 » Sun Jan 29, 2012 7:23 pm

[quote="BrentSBased on what I read in White Dwarf, the ally system will be such that any good army can be allied together (like WoTR). It looks to me that you start with a leader, form his warband and then start adding additional warbands of the same alignment (regardless of which book or list) they come from. Based on this, it is theoretically possible to have the wacky combos like Aragorn and Elendil. While I liked the theming element in LOME, I also like the flexibility.

As I've said before, it will be up to tournaments to enforce theming. From my perspective theming will be heavily scored at BBB.[/quote]

This is one of my concerns as well. I'm actually seeing some of the positives of using these new lists at Adepticon (i.e. is anyone going to really be playing with Legions by April?) but I do worry about what the lack of ally structure might do. I guess we could use them as is and see how bad it is abused. Might be a way of testing the new lists in a tounament setting so we can make some informed judgements?

Jamie
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