Will Clash of Empires replace WAB in 2012?

In the grim darkness of the past?

Will Clash of Empires replace WAB in 2012?

Postby socalwarhammer » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:04 am

With all the drama going down with Forgeworld and Warhammer Historicals, I was just wondering if Clash of Empires might be the new historical miniatures rules used for the singles and doubles tournament next year.
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Postby RichN » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:45 am

Its worth considering, but it depends on a number of factors.

1 - waiting to see what comes out of Salute. Last best chance for FW to do something with WAB. A new commitment to publishing could still go a long way to keeping WAB among the living.

2- I need a judge for one of the two Ancients tournaments. This could provide an opportunity for a new event organizer to put their stamp on one of the tournaments.

3- Chaos Factor. We could have a three way split with WAB, HC and CoE. Not sure if we should embrace change & try to support all three systems or stay with a narrow focus. Fortunately we have a months to review the new books and see if they catch on.
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Postby Matt-J2 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 6:51 am

Don't forget War and Conquest from Scarab miniatures. It's Rob Broom's project so has generated a bit of interest in the WAB community. Won't be out until summer, though.
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Postby RichN » Tue Apr 12, 2011 7:42 am

I think Rob is going to be a day late and a dollar short. WaC was supposed to be out this spring with the other 2 releases.

I'm waiting to see anyone starts producing army books in the WAB style. Not only should the lists cross over rather well, but history and modeling work for any game.
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Postby Matt-J2 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:23 am

I'm not wiling to rule them out just because they aren't releasing at Salute, but I have no vested interest in any of them. I'm just waiting for the reviews to start coming out. If HC is like BP is though, then I'm not likely to be interested. I need lists/books, I don't have the knowledge to really run many battles that don't involve pre-made/points based lists.
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Postby RichN » Tue Apr 12, 2011 8:50 am

HC is going to be a different sort of rule set. Even when talking with the Warlord rep at Adepticon, the first thing out of his mouth was that HC is not for tournament style games. It does appear that we will be seeing lists for HC - Rick Priestly commented on the yahoo list that he was chained to his computer, working on the first installment of 100 lists.

To come back to Pat's original question. I don't see HC being used in any sort of tournament play - but it is my first choice to try out for a big table game.
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Postby tjski » Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:44 am

Here is an idea, why not just go back to WAB 1.5? Lets face it, you can still find WAB 1.5 books on e-bay, there is a ton of 1.5 army books out and most folks that play WAB have the rules already.

If the goal of Adepticon is to keep WAB, than lets go back to the 1st edition of the rules. Now this is just my two cents since I never got version 2.0 (too hard to get and not enough support) so I may be a bit biased.

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Postby RichN » Tue Apr 12, 2011 11:02 am

I have no desire to roll back to WAB 1.5. The upgrade from 1 to 2 this year was pretty minor - most folks took it in stride. I think there were even a few who were playing off of cheat sheets.
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Postby Thogrid » Tue Apr 12, 2011 12:43 pm

RichN wrote:I have no desire to roll back to WAB 1.5. The upgrade from 1 to 2 this year was pretty minor - most folks took it in stride. I think there were even a few who were playing off of cheat sheets.


Sorry to rant here a little...and I mean no disrespect to Tim K or Pat or anybody else of a similar opinion...but I just don't see why there is all this "drama" surrounding WAB v2. As Rich noted, the vast majority of the changes made are pretty subtle. And, in my opinion, the game is better for these changes. From what I could see in the Singles tournament on Saturday, things flowed pretty smoothly and much fun was enjoyed by all involved. WAB v2 is still the WAB we all know and love...still the same engine with some tweaks. The books already published...and there are a ton...work fine in the v2 rules, particularly with the "supplement errata" published. Are there still some issues? Yes...saying the contrary would be dishonest of me...but many of these are the same or similar to those we had with v1.5 and we were all playing WAB with little to no glaring issues then. So why all the hub-bub now? I just don't see where the big issue is.

I can't remember now if it was Hank or Rich that said...and I'm paraphrasing here...the gaming community decides how much support a rules set/system gets, not some company. If we as a group enjoy playing WAB (with all its warts) then we should play WAB. If the group wants to stay with WAB, then so be it. If the group desires a total change and pick up CoE or HC...then so be it. But to my mind, if we enjoy the game (WAB) and we can play it with the books already published, then what is the question?

I think Rich is 100% correct. HC/BP are based on the Warmaster engine...with even more emphasis put on the "big game"/scenario game with multiple players on teams. I love the idea of this type game...a hootin' and hollerin', good time by all sort of game. Could it be played in a tournament setting...sure, but not it's strong suit, in my opinion, from what I've seen/read so far. That doesn't mean we may well end up gravtiating in that direction eventually...but I think it will work best as a "big game" with teams.

I spent last Sunday checking out CoE. I followed the links Pat provided on the WABList (Yahoo Group) and read all the material, battle reports, descriptions etc I could find on CoE. It appears very much like WAB in flow/mechanics/army lists, etc. So to me, the question is why would I drop WAB to go play a game that is VERY similar to WAB...just so I can spend a lot more money on rules and army books that I already own for WAB? Don't get me wrong...CoE looks like a load of fun...just like WAB (almost too much like WAB...like "darn near pushing the limits of copyright infringement issues" close to WAB).

Please don't take my rant here to mean I won't play CoE. One of our group here in KC (probably me) will buy the rules and check it out for ourselves. And who knows...we may make the switch. My main intent with this post is to ask why all the negative vibes with WAB when the game, for all intents and purposes, is the same game it was for the last 12 years...with some tweaks and some of the same warts it has always had. I guess I just don't understand...getting old I suppose. :)

Okay...rant mode off...for now. :D
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Postby Thogrid » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:01 pm

RichN wrote:Its worth considering, but it depends on a number of factors.

1 - waiting to see what comes out of Salute. Last best chance for FW to do something with WAB. A new commitment to publishing could still go a long way to keeping WAB among the living.

2- I need a judge for one of the two Ancients tournaments. This could provide an opportunity for a new event organizer to put their stamp on one of the tournaments.

3- Chaos Factor. We could have a three way split with WAB, HC and CoE. Not sure if we should embrace change & try to support all three systems or stay with a narrow focus. Fortunately we have a months to review the new books and see if they catch on.



My $1.380 on Rich's comments:

1. It would certainly help if FW would get something out there...even a press release stating they are working on *something* for WAB...it might help this notion of needing support.

2 & 3 combined: Here's a thought...if Pat were up to it and was willing, what if Pat did one of the three "big games" we're discussing over on that thread (forums/viewtopic.php?t=6367) using CoE? Then, insetad of me doing a "big game" of WAB, I'd take up the WAB Doubles for 2012...and still participate in and play a supporting role in Dave's BP, Rich's HC and Pat's CoE games?

I certainly don't mean to put Pat on the spot here...forgive me if it appears as such. Pat? Would you be interested in cat herding that effort if a number of us are willing to lend support in the way of toys, etc? A big "demo game" of CoE for the rest of us to participate in or at least watch to get a feel for the game? I would certainly offer up what I have available if the forces you choose to fight it out include something in my collection.

Again...I don't mean to be offensive (electronic formats are sooo bad for this sort of thing at times)...just trying to offer some ideas for next year. :D
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Postby Matt-J2 » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:21 pm

RichN wrote: but it is my first choice to try out for a big table game.



It does look very good for that sort of game, but that's just not my cup of tea. And again, without lists(though you mention it seems like there will be lists) I could never hope to run such a game.
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Postby RichN » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:33 pm

Matt-J2 wrote:
RichN wrote: but it is my first choice to try out for a big table game.



It does look very good for that sort of game, but that's just not my cup of tea. And again, without lists(though you mention it seems like there will be lists) I could never hope to run such a game.


For this event (Crusades big game) - list building will be part of the process regardless of the game system. I hope to have 2 team captains work with me on the master army lists, which can then be passed down to the players for army building.
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Postby RichN » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:35 pm

Thogrid wrote:2 & 3 combined: Here's a thought...if Pat were up to it and was willing, what if Pat did one of the three "big games" we're discussing over on that thread (forums/viewtopic.php?t=6367) using CoE? Then, insetad of me doing a "big game" of WAB, I'd take up the WAB Doubles for 2012...and still participate in and play a supporting role in Dave's BP, Rich's HC and Pat's CoE games?

I certainly don't mean to put Pat on the spot here...forgive me if it appears as such. Pat? Would you be interested in cat herding that effort if a number of us are willing to lend support in the way of toys, etc? A big "demo game" of CoE for the rest of us to participate in or at least watch to get a feel for the game? I would certainly offer up what I have available if the forces you choose to fight it out include something in my collection.


Now we just need to tell Pat he's been drafted for CoE singles!
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Postby Thogrid » Tue Apr 12, 2011 1:43 pm

RichN wrote:Now we just need to tell Pat he's been drafted for CoE singles!


HA! Are you trying to get out of running any tournaments next year? :lol:

Hmmm...maybe Pat would volunteer to run the WAB singles on Satruday (so I could play in it) and then I run a CoE Singles on Sunday so he can play in that? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby socalwarhammer » Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:22 am

I am up for it. I don't really want to give up on WAB, but like many others would like to see some new content.

I will be will to run one of the big events...I will think about and get back to you guys, or just run the WAB Singles...That sounds fine to me.
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