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In the grim darkness of the past?

Postby Thogrid » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:20 pm

DavePauwels wrote:I can not even begin to tell you how many family trips saw my sister and I walk the hallowed grounds of the Hornet's Nest, Little Round Top, and Lookout Mountain. I would need considerable time and space.

Now, at the risk of being premature about this, the Black Powder game would be Shiloh (April 1862-see how that works for Adepticon 2012?). Every participant would be responsible for their own brigade (roughly 3-4 Regiments, plus artillery). Ideally, we'd have 4-5 commands on each side, Federal and Confederate. Then we'd need one player on each side to act as overall commander (Division commander).

We wouldn't necessarily need each brigade to match their historical Shiloh counter-part (though I'd probably paint Sherman's first brigade under McDowell), but the scenario/battle would represent part of the historical battle, as would the terrain.

Again, as a historical game at Adepticon, I'd like to avoid overlap with the WAB Tournament or Rich's Hail Caesar! game (I'd like to personally play in both next year).

Again, this is almost criminally premature. But I would like to come out of Adepticon 2011 with a plan and a few committments. Including some sponsors.


I've not played BP...and while I hate to admit it (I've played WAB for so long and it is my favorite game of all time) I'm thinking about at least picking up HC just to have it, if for no other reason. Like others have noted, if BP/HC are similar to, if not based on, Warmaster, I'd probably play it. Back in the day we played the crap out of Warmaster and it is another favorite of mine. Warmaster Ancients is a blast as well and a great way to use my 15mm armies. :lol:

I'd be interested in supporting/participating in either or both initiatives...even if I can't make it to AC '12. I'd be happy to paint up some units and get them to Dave or Rich if I can't make it. Personally I'd prefer we do a "big Ancients game" based on WAB v2...but would do my best to support a game based on HC. Who knows, I might be more excited after I read through/play a couple HC games. :shock:

I like the idea of an ACW big participation game. Over the last 5 or 6 years I've managed to make it to the battlefields at Antietam, Manasas (twice) and Gettysburg (three times)...each trip spurring more interest in learning more of this period of our history. For the BP ACW initative, I've got a ton of ACW figs (Confederate and Federal) just waiting for an excuse to paint them...and I'm "in the swing" of painting Union troops right now with the LBH game for AC '11. :D

I agree with Dave...let's try to leave AC '11 with a tentative, general plan for one or both initatives that don't conflict with the WAB tournaments. Big participation type games at a venue as big as AC are a great way to introduce players to something "new" and a fabulous idea! IMHO anyway...

Count me in.
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Postby Thogrid » Fri Mar 11, 2011 1:35 pm

Thogrid wrote: Who knows, I might be more excited after I read through/play a couple HC games. :shock:


Speaking of checking out HC, just received my latest e-newsletter from Warlord games with this: http://www.warlordgames.co.uk/?p=10665

:)
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Postby DavePauwels » Fri Mar 11, 2011 3:52 pm

Merle,
I would love to have you onboard for any of these possibilities. You are 100% right: the reason to do a big multi-player participation/exhibition game is to get people drawn in by the spectacle. That's how you get new players, or at least get people talking.

If it were up to me, I'd want to do a "big game" WAB 2.0 Heraclea with Republican Romans versus Pyrrhic pike on Friday, a "big game" Black Powder Shiloh/ACW on Saturday and a "big game" Hail Caesar! Crusades game on Sunday. To me, as a very uncompetitive gamer, that would be the best Adepticon ever.

But I am sure we can find some way to do some of this next year.
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Postby prion2001 » Fri Mar 11, 2011 4:26 pm

I have to admit that although this is a crazy idea (i.e. the logistics of pulling off even ONE of these is HUGE) I can't resist the urge to participate. I'm willing to committ to one game and painting stuff for it. There are a lot of questions though. Do we have a standard basing in mind? Do we try and have a standard appearance or just pull together everyones models from different manufacturers? Do we start with a specific army list for both forces and then divide this up so we know exactly what is needed? How soon will we know what is needed? Will people use their own forces or allow them to be used by others at the event (and are people ok with that)? These are just a few off the top of my head. :roll:

The final spectacle would be awsome but the planning and committment are crucial to pulling it off.

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Postby RichN » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:01 pm

DavePauwels wrote:Merle,
,, I'd want to do a "big game" WAB 2.0 Heraclea with Republican Romans versus Pyrrhic pike...


How convenient, Aventine just announced a new Pyrrhic line.
http://www.aventineminiatures.co.uk/page14.html

As for three big games - it will be a struggle to fit in those plus 2 days of tournaments. Maybe do Friday 9-3 (Ancient) and 4-10 (Crusade) with ACW running Saturday (night?) with the singles tournament and leaving Sunday for doubles. A lot of it depends on who steps up to champion which events....
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Postby DavePauwels » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:12 pm

I just assumed I could count on you, Jamie :wink:

Seriously, I think you're right. We may, in the end, have to focus on one "big game" for 2012 and then if all went well, we could go forward from there.

I have an Adepticon meeting (aka drinks at Harry Caray's) with Dave Taylor and maybe Joe Krone. I think I'd like to get their input before we decide on the battle/period/rules. And I've had one offer of discounted troops from one online store, if we do a period they carry.

The trick is this, really, it has to be accessible. By that I mean that it has to be a) a period everyone enjoys or has an interest in doing troops for and b) has figures readily available.

An example of an "accessible" game would be Boudicca's revolt. Early Imperial Romans versus British. There are some great ranges for both sides and most people like Romans/Celts.

So, we just need to take certain things into consideration when planning.

D
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Postby Thogrid » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:35 pm

DavePauwels wrote:Merle,
I would love to have you onboard for any of these possibilities. You are 100% right: the reason to do a big multi-player participation/exhibition game is to get people drawn in by the spectacle. That's how you get new players, or at least get people talking.

If it were up to me, I'd want to do a "big game" WAB 2.0 Heraclea with Republican Romans versus Pyrrhic pike on Friday, a "big game" Black Powder Shiloh/ACW on Saturday and a "big game" Hail Caesar! Crusades game on Sunday. To me, as a very uncompetitive gamer, that would be the best Adepticon ever.

But I am sure we can find some way to do some of this next year.
Dave


I already have most of a 2,000 point Republican Roman army done...need about 15 command type figs and a handful of Triari (IIRC) and it would be done. A Crusades game would be a BLAST! Depending on time frame, my Normans (2,000 points in WAB terms) would do fine for Secular Knights and it (again) would be a great reason to finish the Military Order Knights that are sitting scraped and primed, taunting me from the display case. :lol:

And while I absolutely love playing in the tournaments (even though I'm not that competetive at times) and hanging with the guys is a big reason I come to these events, I also thoroughly enjoy running participation games! I'd certainly be willing to help with running two of these...maybe even pass on the WAB Singles and help with a third. :shock:

prion2001 wrote:I have to admit that although this is a crazy idea (i.e. the logistics of pulling off even ONE of these is HUGE) I can't resist the urge to participate. I'm willing to committ to one game and painting stuff for it. There are a lot of questions though. Do we have a standard basing in mind? Do we try and have a standard appearance or just pull together everyones models from different manufacturers? Do we start with a specific army list for both forces and then divide this up so we know exactly what is needed? How soon will we know what is needed? Will people use their own forces or allow them to be used by others at the event (and are people ok with that)? These are just a few off the top of my head. :roll:

The final spectacle would be awsome but the planning and committment are crucial to pulling it off.

Jamie


You're right Jamie...it would be a big undertaking to do this and committment will be the key....especially two or three such events...but possible if we do as Dave suggests and walk away from AC '11 with a solid plan for AC '12. Back in the Outrider Days, we did a number of these sorts of things at Games Days. Most of the time a number of guys would volunteer to do a various number of figs to fill out the forces...at times some of us providing a large enough number of figs that it could be a stand alone, "normal" sized force for a regular game. The times that it worked best, one guy would become the coordinator/project manager (ie, head cat herder!) complete with regular status updates and a simple project plan with milestones, etc.

Typically a general color scheme/pattern plus basing method and sizes were determined ahead of time and then executed by those participating. Occassionally we had to re-do some of the bases the night before because they were either God-awful or simply not done...but for the most part it went off well. And...I'm talking 20-25 guys producing 10-15 figs each. Depending what we decide to do as far as the total size of forces involved, we may not be that huge. Assuming HC! armies are roughly the same as a WAB force, we can probably have 4,000-5,000 points a side and have 6-10 players a side, with each player controlling a unit, perhaps two.

IIRC from reading about HC!, basing standards for infantry and cav are the same as WAB per figure, just multi-based stands. For those that want to base individually, we simply ask them to make sabot bases/movement trays and we should be good. Heck, we 'd want movement trays anyway for a WAB game...so it shouldn't be a big deal. BP/HC! use casualty markers as a unit suffers attrition and at some level the unit is removed.

Personally I don't see too much of an issue with different manufacturers etc as it will give forces a nice variety and should still look fine. As long as we're all using ACW, Crusaders or Republican Romans, etc...we should be good. Variations in basing methods should be okay too as long as we're all fairly close. I would think volunteers would need to take on entire units to help with this...at least all the figs in any given unit would be uniformly based that way.

As far as allowing others to use my figs...I'm used to that given the Outrider thing. Seal the crap out of them, then warn the players ahead of time to take care and don't be afraid to call somebody on it when they aren't...to the point of telling them to leave the table when they don't comply. I figure "battle damage" happens when I play with the figs...it is going to happen somehow by me or someone else. :)

So, for this undertaking we definitely need to develop the army lists, divvy up who is painting/providing what (to include any terrain) and lay out a project plan. Perhaps we can find time over the weekend to do this? If so, first round is on me! :wink:
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Postby Thogrid » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:39 pm

RichN wrote:As for three big games - it will be a struggle to fit in those plus 2 days of tournaments. Maybe do Friday 9-3 (Ancient) and 4-10 (Crusade) with ACW running Saturday (night?) with the singles tournament and leaving Sunday for doubles. A lot of it depends on who steps up to champion which events....


That time line could work well Rich! And I could still play in the WAB tournaments! :lol:

Seriously...I think this is doable. Huge...but doable.
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Postby Thogrid » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:49 pm

DavePauwels wrote:I just assumed I could count on you, Jamie :wink:

Seriously, I think you're right. We may, in the end, have to focus on one "big game" for 2012 and then if all went well, we could go forward from there.


Nah! Let's do all three!! :shock: :lol: :lol:

DavePauwels wrote:I have an Adepticon meeting (aka drinks at Harry Caray's) with Dave Taylor and maybe Joe Krone. I think I'd like to get their input before we decide on the battle/period/rules. And I've had one offer of discounted troops from one online store, if we do a period they carry.

The trick is this, really, it has to be accessible. By that I mean that it has to be a) a period everyone enjoys or has an interest in doing troops for and b) has figures readily available.

An example of an "accessible" game would be Boudicca's revolt. Early Imperial Romans versus British. There are some great ranges for both sides and most people like Romans/Celts.

So, we just need to take certain things into consideration when planning.

D


DOH! There's two more armies sitting in boxes wating for paint. IIRC, both are in the 3,000 point range.

I do agree Dave...opposing forces should probably be something the typical non-historical gamers would recognize...good for the draw. Almost everybody recognizes an EIR Legionnaire and/or a Hairy Naked Barbarian (HNB).

When do you meet with Dave Taylor and Joe? What sort of input from them are you looking for?
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Postby DavePauwels » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:49 pm

Three 'big games?' You guys are crazy. But I like your style. I would sorely be tempted to run/organize one and play in the other two. Which means I'd want to paint for all three. One year seems like a long time...
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Postby DavePauwels » Fri Mar 11, 2011 5:54 pm

Well, the idea of a multi-player game at Adepticon was sort of originally Krone's idea. A few people were working on Napoleonic battalions. It sort of fell through. I would love to see if those two would be interested in giving the concept a second attempt. And what period/genre would be most attractive to the most people.
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Postby Thogrid » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:01 pm

DavePauwels wrote:Three 'big games?' You guys are crazy. But I like your style. I would sorely be tempted to run/organize one and play in the other two. Which means I'd want to paint for all three. One year seems like a long time...


I've never claimed to be sane...at all! Just ask my wife!! :roll:

Like you, I'd want to paint for all three...and could probably swing being cat herder/running one of these.

A year is a long time...esepcially if we walk away the first weekend in April knowing what needs to be done for 2012.

Besides, the world will end in December of 2012...at least according to the Mayan calendar...so we have to do this!!
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Postby Thogrid » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:08 pm

DavePauwels wrote:Well, the idea of a multi-player game at Adepticon was sort of originally Krone's idea. A few people were working on Napoleonic battalions. It sort of fell through. I would love to see if those two would be interested in giving the concept a second attempt. And what period/genre would be most attractive to the most people.


Ah...I see. Heck yeah...get them on board too! The more the merrier, eh?

Let me ask...what is your idea of a "big game"? 6-10 players? 10-14? 20+?

I can't speak to BP, but a typical WAB (and I assume Hail Cesear!) force is around 6-8 units at 2,000 points. So, if we did 4,000 points per side (so two "tournament" sized forces), and each player runs a unit or two, we're talking in that 6-14 players per side range. Granted, there's a lot more Celts in 4,000 points than EIR but still doable.

Thoughts?
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Postby BrentS » Fri Mar 11, 2011 6:23 pm

DavePauwels wrote:Three 'big games?' You guys are crazy. But I like your style. I would sorely be tempted to run/organize one and play in the other two. Which means I'd want to paint for all three. One year seems like a long time...


Stop getting distracted by Historicals and finish your LOTR army Dave! :wink:
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Postby RichN » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:57 pm

Thogrid wrote:Let me ask...what is your idea of a "big game"? 6-10 players? 10-14? 20+?


I was originally thinking teams of 3-5 with each player providing an equivalent force of 2000 points. Players would be expected to have some level of familiarity with the rule set. Would be certainly possible for an experienced team captain to shepherd a few novices. If a particular game was rather popular, it would be possible to run more than 1 game at a time. Think of it as a jumbo sized team event - mostly for fun, but with an opportunity for a bit of competitive play.

The Civil war BP game could be good candidate for an "all figures" provided type of game with 10 players per team. Most players at Adepticon will be completely new to this time period.
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