Rulings Request- Sorry Rich

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Rulings Request- Sorry Rich

Postby Nostromo » Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:26 am

Rich- Still doing some Army Building and before buying any minis I was hoping to get some ACon rulings, as my questions on the WAB forum and Yahoo! List are not getting touched (mostly because the Authors of the books are not alive (BTGG) or do not participate (SW).

Here we go-
1- In BTGG Goth list it allows you to combine Warriors with Freemen. Most of the rules are clear, but combination rule says Warriors may combine with Freemen at 50 to 75%- I always thought this meant 50 to 75% of the unit- until I tried Army builder which figured Freeman out as 50 to 75% of the Warriors- which the way the rule is worded is a distinct possibility. Anyone know what the intent was?

Also, with the Combined Huscarl/Ceorl-Gebur units. With the 2.o rules (and the sample army sheet mentions it in the back) would the Ceorl/Gebur command figures be in the 2nd rank or where ever the Ceorls start? Seems like a good fit and makes the Huscarl crust a little more fragile...

2- When a unit entry states "every other unit" may take bows/light armor/etc... does that mean if you only take one they can have that? It doesn't say every second unit-

so if I take 1 it could have what every other have, or if I take 3, 2 could have what every other can have???
Trying to see how many Lombard Freeman units I have to get to actually get some bows on the board.
I know when I asked James Morris about this with El Cid and bow armed Jinetes, he said it wasn't a balance issue at all- just historical and since I was creating a Turcoman unit he thought the list worked well if I just added bows to all- for friendly games of course... but that isn't an answer...

3- Is it just me, or is the missile weapon chart for each weapon going to cause more confusion- i.e. a crossbow at short range is Str 4 and -1 to Armour Save. Is there another -1 to the save as Str 4 is mentioned later as causing a -1 to a save? I do not think that is the intent at all- and was surprised that xbows are neutered a bit now, so maybe I won't miss them as much!
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Postby RichN » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:20 am

1 - will get back to you on the Warriors/Freemen.

The 2.0 rules allow for command to be placed anywhere in the unit. This cleans up the rather vague description in SW about what to do with the Ceorl/Gebur command figures. Put the Ceorl/Gebur command figures in the rows behind the Huscarl. All elements of command should be fully functional (you get the +1 CR for banner, can march for Musician) but the leader would only fight if in the 2nd rank and equipped with a thrusting spear.

2 - the responses on the forums are clear. "every other unit" is the same as every second unit. ie unit 1 takes Javelins, unit 2 is permitted to take bows, unit 3 takes Javelins, unit 4 is permitted to take bows, ....

3- the -1 save listed in the book is for the st4. Its not an additional modifier to save. I think Martin has already clarified this on the WAB forums.


http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=9035
I also agree with your take on Cataphracts. Barding makes cavalry Close Order, not Cataphracts. Cataphract should be considered a unit type which army books will reference in special rules. Given that we will not be seeing any new army books - we will need to rely on the FAQ or our common sense (be it common or not) for when to apply the rule.
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Postby RichN » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:58 am

I can't find any references to the Warrior/freemen question online. In that case, I would go with how Army Builder applies the rule - its been in circulation long enough to have force a question if it were incorrect.
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Postby Nostromo » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:10 pm

well bummer on that one- makes calculation a pain to build a unit- and it is different then all the rest.

So if I want a 12 man mixed unit it can be 8 Warriors/4 Freemen, to 7 Warriors/5 Freemen. I can work with that.

You notice no one touched it on the forum?
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Postby Nostromo » Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:07 pm

Thanks Rich- now I can move on with my life!
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Postby Nostromo » Fri Jan 14, 2011 9:02 am

Well, my version of Army Builder isn't supported anymore- so not sure if the new AB3 WAB files are fixed for this. As it stands the one I am using for AB2 allows my Characters to take a Broadsword, does not allow Barding for Characters and allows Light Armor on every unit of Freemen- so I wouldn't put any faith into its use as a rule indicator.

The few responses I got make it seem they play it like the Saxons i.e. Unit Percentage....but must not be a popular list as not many definitive responses- with Hein not around to support it, I think it gets left out of rulings and errata.

http://wabforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=92&t=9056
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Postby Matt-J2 » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:14 am

The AB data files really do have a lot of issues, I use them but I really check each variant against the book before relying on it.

Looking at the German Tribes, the percentage looks to be per unit, not army, as the language of the rest that rule section has to do with units, i.e. "placed in the rear ranks" and the like.
There's still additional requirements on ratio of Freemen to Warriors in the army, though. There has to be 2 Freemen for each Warrior and Unfree cannot outnumber Warriors.


*edit* This probably doesn't adress the issue, sorry. I knew there was a reason I didn't answer in the other forum!
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Postby RichN » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:06 am

On further review, the AB3 Gothic file does not validate much of anything.

For Adepticon, play Freemen as 50-75 percent of the total Warrior unit.
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Postby jlong05 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 11:15 am

Remember that while Army Builder is a great tool, the data files are only as good as the authors who created them. Additionally, they are NOT created by the game makers but by volunteers in their free time.

One thing I would suggest is to try contacting the AB3 maintainer(through the wolflair.com forums) and see if they are still active in maintaining the files. If so are they aware of the 'errors' you have found, and if not create a comprehensive bug report so they can find and fix them for you.

In the event they are not being supported, if you have programming background, might I suggest also taking up than mantle?

In any case though, I would never assume that the AB files are the definitive rule, but that they do strive to be accurate to the rule instead. Sometimes stuff slips through, but its a community effort to get them right.

Look at the 40k files as an example. THere are bugs and for those files it takes a team of volunteers to work and bug test them and we still miss items that get out to the public.
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Postby RichN » Sat Jan 15, 2011 12:59 pm

I don't generally support AB. I find their business model unpalatable. Just looking to the data file to see if the community supported any sort of consensus on a difficult question.

Do you have an opinion on the ration of Freemen to Warriors in a Gothic army?
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Postby Nostromo » Sat Jan 15, 2011 2:49 pm

Now I am scared to bring up my Allies question- but better ask-

Goth list again.

If a list is allowed Allies, but the Allies are restricted not by points but by number of units- do I need to apply those Ally points spent to any other restriction? i.e. Cavalry or Infantry

I tend to think not as the restriction to units is already there- so with the Ostrogoths, I can take either up to 2 Units of Foederati OR up to 2 Units of Berber Light Cavalry from the Early Byzantine list [even more confusing is it could be Justinian or Heraclian, but I guess that is OK and I won't touch that- users choice of era of Ostrogoths desired I imagine]. Just most of the lists say what type of Ally you can have and also have some type of point restriction...but not a number of units restriction, so I think it all comes out in the wash...[/u]
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