2009 Gladiator Planning/Comment Thread #2

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If the Gladiator becomes a 2500 point tournament, I will...

...have no problems fielding a 2500 point army - bring it on!
22
52%
...violate rule #1 online, but would purchase/assemble/paint the extra models I need.
2
5%
...not play in the gladiator, when I would if the points remained at 2000 points.
9
21%
...not play in the gladiator. Of course, I would never play in the Gladiator anyways.
5
12%
...wait to see what Fred Fortman does and follow his lead. WWFD.
2
5%
...wait to see what Marc Parker does and follow his lead.
1
2%
...complain, because there's still no way for me to field a warlord titan with a bazillion D-weapons and still take two troops and an HQ..
1
2%
 
Total votes : 42

Postby Redbeard » Tue May 06, 2008 1:10 pm

I think it is wrong to call any discussion about improving the system 'whining.' It's 11 months until Adepticon 2009.

There are legitimate concerns on all sides here. There is a real-world time contraint. There is the fact that, like them or not, horde armies as just as valid and legal as armour companies. And, there is the desire among most competitors that the games actually get through turn 6.

To call any of these concerns whining is to show a lack of understanding of the problem, and to perpetuate it. Maybe some of the solutions won't work - but at least they're being thrown out there and talked through.
"All very successful commanders are prima donnas and must be so treated."

George S. Patton
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Tue May 06, 2008 2:09 pm

muwhe wrote:It's no more abusable than the current system and it penalizes players that think they can play 2/3 of a game and sit on a win by slow playing for a turn 4 victory.


So you would rather implement a sweeping change that still penalizes good players that just happen to be playing against a slow player. That is not even close to a good solution. All it is doing is shifting the problem sideways.

muwhe wrote:Type 2 are the people the we can do something about by providing motivation to speed up play be it additional points to both players if the game makes turn 5. Penalty points for games that only make 4 turns.

There has to be a incentative to play faster to force people to pick up their game.


Besides incentives, organizers should be looking to push a schedule similar to the one below. The percentages can be adjusted, but this should give a good starting point:

..................................................................Announcement
...............................................Percent of...Time
Phase.....................Minutes.....Total Time...In Event.....Announcement
Setup for Game......... 20............ 13%......... 20............ Should be starting round 1
Player 1 Rd 1.............17
Player 2 Rd 1.............17.............23%...........54............Should be starting round 2
Player 1 Rd 2.............14
Player 2 Rd 2.............14.............19%...........82............Should be starting round 3
Player 1 Rd 3.............11.5
Player 2 Rd 3.............11.5..........15%.........105............Should be starting round 4
Player 1 Rd 4.............10
Player 2 Rd 4.............10.............13%.........125............Should be starting round 5
Player 1 Rd 5.............7.5
Player 2 Rd 5.............7.5.............10%.........140............Should be starting round 6
Player 1 Rd 6.............5
Player 2 Rd 6.............5.................7%.........150

Game Length.............150.............Minutes
Game Length.............2.5.............Hours

Again, I can't say this enough - training, training, training.
- Greg
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Postby Centurian99 » Tue May 06, 2008 2:36 pm

Honestly, I don't think that there is a really good solution to the problem of slow players. 2250 might be a good points level (and distinct from any other tournament that I know of), but we need to make sure that the majority of players have the time to complete the game.

Do we want to have a Q on the result sheet that asks, "My opponent deliberately tried to play slowly (-2 battle points)." It might encourage people to play faster, but then it also opens up what's essentially subjective scoring to the Gladiator, which I'm none to fond of.
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Postby Ckilleen » Tue May 06, 2008 5:11 pm

I like the idea of an increase of points. I would prefer 2500, but I know that a lot of people would only want 2250 or stay the same, I think a good compromise would be 2250 for the points. also I know someone said increasing the time. I think thats a bad idea, maybe to like 11AM but not 10 or 9 like the one person said. you have to tink of people that come from out of state like me and my 8 friends. It would be real hard to make it down there by 10 or 9 considering the traffic. (for example just this last year we were stuck only 1 mile from the hotel but it took us over 30mins to get there from the one mile mark. end rant of being pissed of lat the traffic) we all like 4 hours a way.
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Tue May 06, 2008 6:20 pm

Ckilleen wrote:you have to tink of people that come from out of state like me and my 8 friends. It would be real hard to make it down there by 10 or 9 considering the traffic. (for example just this last year we were stuck only 1 mile from the hotel but it took us over 30mins to get there from the one mile mark. end rant of being pissed of lat the traffic) we all like 4 hours a way.


I suggested starting earlier and still believe that would work. We come from Toledo, OH on Thursday night, which is 5.5 hours away. If you have eight guys, you could split one more night of hotel for $25 to $33 ea (assuming 3-4 guys per room), which is more than affordable. We started traveling to AdeptiCon on Thursday nights just to alleviate the problems with driving through traffic. Plus it is not fair to hold up the entire convention because some people want to save $25.
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Postby tear of the angel » Tue May 06, 2008 8:25 pm

I would have to totally agree with Inquisitor_Malice.
If you think that you can't make by registration, then you should just come down on Thursday.

It would also save everyone else, from having to wait on people in traffic, like we did this year.

Oh, and if you can't afford it, then maybe you should start saving money for the tournament sooner.
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Postby Ckilleen » Tue May 06, 2008 9:16 pm

you werent waiting on my group we were their earily by like 45mins
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Postby Blackmoor » Tue May 06, 2008 9:50 pm

There are a couple of ways to motivate for faster play.

You can take off battle points if you do not finish. -5 Battle points if you only get to turn #4 and -2 points if you only get to turn #5.


Also you can try a three strikes policy. Have a check box for “Game did not go the full 6 turns”.

The first game that you did not finish is a caution.
The second game you did not finish is a warning.
The third game you did not finish is a loss.

If you can’t finish 3 games in a 4 game tournament, then the problem lies with you.

I was thinking that you get a loss with 2 unfinished games, but you might draw 2 horde players just by the luck of the draw, and you would get a loss though no fault of your own.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed May 07, 2008 8:21 am

Blackmoor wrote:If you can’t finish 3 games in a 4 game tournament, then the problem lies with you.


Not necessarily. The problem may lie with the fact that the tournament has been set up without enough time to realistically deploy and play a legitimate style of army.

Assume that it takes, on average, three seconds to physically move a model from one place to another. A two-hundred model horde army will take 70 minutes just in deployment and movement phases, and that's without the player doing any thinking, just manual manipulation of the models, and bare minimum measuring. (and, yes, some models will die and turns might get faster, but it also takes time to move the models when they die and this provides a little fuzz factor)

Add in shooting and assaults, and you're looking at a bare minimum of 90 minutes needed by the horde player. That's without "thinking" time, without any time spent on anything except the business of physically moving the models and rolling the dice.


I'm by no means a slow player. I designed my army to be easy to move quickly (different colours on different mobs). I brought tools to help speed things up too (the six-inch measuring template instead of a tape measure). I didn't spend time debating my moves, when it was my turn, I knew what was going to go where, and started moving them. And, although I'd have liked to have taken pictures of each turn, after deployment, I concentrated on just playing the game. And, 2:15/round was just not enough time.

Some types of armies simply take time to play. If you start penalizing anyone who doesn't finish, you essentially remove those armies from the field.

Some people here might prefer that. Some people might prefer being able to design their own armies without having to worry about running into a horde. But, I don't think that's appropriate. Especially not in a gladiator that's expected to showcase some of the most extreme builds out there.

Ideally, the best solution, in my opinion, is to gather some reasonable data about how much time is really needed for a round, and make sure that the rounds have that much time. I've never heard anyone complain about having an extra 30 minutes between rounds cause their game finished early.

Four rounds at 3 hours each is a 12-hour event. Start at 10am, end at 10pm. If you can get the between-round stuff done in 15 minutes, that's 2:45 per game, 165 minutes, and that should be enough even for two hordes facing each other, at least at 2000 points.

But, I understand that you cannot manufacture time. There are limits to how long the tournament can run. Even if the gamers are willing to play until dawn, the hotel staff may not permit it.

If rounds cannot be made longer, it's my opinion that the spirit of "bring anything" to the gladiator is better served by accepting that some games may only get four turns, rather than punishing anyone who brings a horde army.
"All very successful commanders are prima donnas and must be so treated."

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Postby muwhe » Wed May 07, 2008 8:39 am

I think the event has enough time allowed ( not that we are not looking at the schedule ) and I can say the following with confidence. I can play any army at 2k points in 2 hours and use less than the my half of the time be it horde or anything else. If I couldn't I wouldn't bring it to a tourney. Horde isn't new this year folks used to bring all infantry IG, little bugs etc.. what was new was the Orc codex.

If you bring a model heavy army you need to be able to deploy quicker, move faster, resolve quicker, etc. In short you need to be more organized. On your opponents turn you need to be prepping dice piles, and planning your next turn. It also means your going to have less time for BS and stroking your opponent. If your a heavy social player .. horde armies are not for you.

The issue I think we had was the Orc codex was new. A significant number of people both players and opponents did not have a familar comfort level with it. New codexs have not been a reall issue in the past but then you add the horde factor, and time. Now we got an issue. Given time and 5th edition that might solve the majority of it.
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Wed May 07, 2008 8:51 am

I also think this 3 seconds to move each model is BS. It should not take a miniute and a half to deploy a 30 man unit. If it takes more than a minute, you are doing something wrong.

The same goes for movement. It should not take a minute and a half to move a 30 man unit.

I agree with Hank - if you take a model heavy army, you need to move and play your game quicker. Organizing things on your turn is another key component and this includes the thinking time.
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Postby Redbeard » Wed May 07, 2008 9:22 am

Ok, I've got a watch and a thing on my desk at work. It takes about two seconds to pick it up and move it about six inches, thats from time my hand touches it to the time my hand is back where it started from (which is what you're going to be doing moving an army).

That's without worrying about whether an opponent is going to object to the movement distance and trying to be obvious that I'm not surfing inches on him. It's without worrying about leaving a tail of guys back to my forcefield or the unit coherency issues required to do so.

I don't think 3-seconds / guy is unreasonable, and deploying 30 models in any way other than just dropping a clump of them on the table at once shouldn't be deemed excessive if it takes a minute and a half, or even two minutes. But, next time I get the army out, I'll try and take some timings for you.
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Wed May 07, 2008 9:45 am

When I play with guard conscripts, I typically grab 3 to 5 per deployment move, which allows full deployment of a 50 man unit in a minute. The same goes for any horde army. Unless they are Chris Borer painted minis (which 99+% of horde armies aren't), you should not be worried about moving them in this manner.

As far as exact measurements on horde movement, the majority of players will have some flexibility with this. The only time that I ever make exact measurements besides the first few guys is when it is close to charge ranges, the models that make up the outside perimeter of the horde mob in the direction that they are heading and any special guys (ie: rokkits, nobs, commissars, etc). In this way you can grab at least 2 to 3 guys per move.

Also placing models just outside of your deployment zone while your opponent is deploying helps to decrease your deployment time. I do this all the time no matter what army I have.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed May 07, 2008 10:18 am

I agree with Greg. There is no way the placement of model # 20 should have the same careful scrutiny that model #1 gets in a mob. Measure and move the first guy or 2 and then push them all up. If you need to carefully measure distance and spacing for every model on every move in order to win, then don't bring the army.

Some people say the game is about making sure both players are having fun. Who has fun with insanely deliberate players? No one. It is not a 40k exclusive with deliberate players. We have deliberate players in HOTT and DBA games that use 1/9th the number of stands 40k does.

Why don't we just have a seperate objective in every Gladiator game. If the game goes through the bottom of turn 6, then both players get +2 battle points. If the game does not reach that point, no one gets the extra battle points. Make the same rule for the other events, but throw the points into sportsmanship or something.
Last edited by Generalissimo_Fred on Wed May 07, 2008 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Centurian99 » Wed May 07, 2008 10:22 am

Well, something that will need to be discussed is whether the rumored 40K 5 random game length is going to transfer over to the Gladiator missions.
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