2009 Gladiator Planning/Comment Thread #2

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If the Gladiator becomes a 2500 point tournament, I will...

...have no problems fielding a 2500 point army - bring it on!
22
52%
...violate rule #1 online, but would purchase/assemble/paint the extra models I need.
2
5%
...not play in the gladiator, when I would if the points remained at 2000 points.
9
21%
...not play in the gladiator. Of course, I would never play in the Gladiator anyways.
5
12%
...wait to see what Fred Fortman does and follow his lead. WWFD.
2
5%
...wait to see what Marc Parker does and follow his lead.
1
2%
...complain, because there's still no way for me to field a warlord titan with a bazillion D-weapons and still take two troops and an HQ..
1
2%
 
Total votes : 42

2009 Gladiator Planning/Comment Thread #2

Postby Centurian99 » Sun May 04, 2008 12:01 am

We've had some good discussion in the other thread...I wanted to start this one to include a poll. (you should see it at the top of this post).

"No Whining" will remain the #1 rule. Forgeworld and usage of the Apoc rules are here to stay. Formations and assets will most likely remain banned. So the question is, within those conditions, how do we ensure the maximum amount of fun for all those participating?

Obviously, I'd want to discuss this with my Co-coordinator Greg, but I'm totally open to pushing up the points value, especially if we can start earlier.

A 10AM reg, 11AM start, with 2 hours 30 minutes per round and 20 minute breaks between rounds means that a four-round tourney will take 11 hours. That would put the Gladiator's timeframe at 11-10. A long day (especially considering the lack of meal breaks) but doable.

My only experience at that point level in tournament play is the 'Ard Boyz tournaments, where we had 2500 point armies and exactly that amount of time for each game. In retrospect, out of 9 games, I finished 7 of them. That was three games with Night Lords, 3 games with Mech Guard, and 3 games with Daemonhunters (1 unfinished game each with IG and DH).

What I'd like is for some other people to chime in with their experiences at that point level in terms of finishing games. Obviously, this would all be anecdotal evidence, but it provides us with a place to start. I'm especially interested in the experience of players with horde armies. If you're fielding 180 boyz or 196 gaunts, are you going to be able to move, shoot, and resolve assaults for all those models in two and a half hours?

For the purposes of this discussion, assume that the rumored 40K 5 deployment (P1 deploys everything and declares whether they go first or second, followed by P2 deploying everything) is true.

Also, the other consideration is this: does pushing the points up to 2500 make it overly problematic for people to play in the Gladiator? Hence the poll.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun May 04, 2008 9:10 am

I like the points and I like the timeframe. The Gladiator is also about endurance and being able to think straight after playing for many hours. Remember this event used to start in the late afternoon and not get over until early in the morning. It is not designed for people to socialize around the games, it's the Gladiator!!

I to played in all nine games of the Ard Boyz tourney and I think I finished each game. I had all foot marines (not excactly horde), but I did play against Bugs and all foot Tau (that's a lot of Tau). Both games finished on time.

In my experience, set up has always taken the longest time out of this event. 5th edition set-up should speed this up along with an APOC suggestion. Why don't you give each player a pre-determined amount of time to set up. Say 10 minutes per player. Announce that set-up is beginning and start the clock. After 10 minutes is up anything that is not set up is put into deep reserves. Deep reserves is different than reserves in that when the dice is rolled for that unit, you need to subtract 1 from the roll and at no time can these deep reserves be allowed to automaticlly come onto the table. Then player 2 gets 10 minutes to set up with the same restrictions.

I figure deep reserves, with the minus 1 to the roll, will be enough of a disincentive for people to want to place something in reserve when it normally wouldn't be allowed to.
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Postby biztheclown » Sun May 04, 2008 12:06 pm

This is a pretty good idea. I think that 5th ed will overall be faster and more streamlined, with more decisive assaults, so I think it will work out. We will have to see what 5th ed shakes out like, but if most of the rumors hold, including games being 5-7 turns, games should be faster.

I also like Fred's suggestion about the "deep reserves."

Chess clocks?
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Postby Redbeard » Sun May 04, 2008 1:04 pm

I like the timeframe and the 2k points.

I do not like anything that punishes a player for not fitting a pre-determined time schedule. 10 minutes for setup is fine for nidzilla. It's fine for necrons.

It's not fine for 2.5k of 6 point models. The metagame should set itself based on the codexes in print, not on additional time rules. In 2000 points, I had over 200 models. 10 minutes would mean that I would be forced to set up at a rate of three seconds per model. That's excessively restrictive.

If the player is making a legitimate effort to setup and play quickly, they should not be penalized, regardless of what army they choose to bring.
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Postby Blackmoor » Sun May 04, 2008 7:07 pm

I played in all 9 rounds of the 'Ardboyz and I did not finish 2 games. One of them was against horde 'nids and the other guy had 60 Raptors.

The problem though is that the Ork codex was not around during the 'Ardboyz.

How many Ork armies were there at the Gladiator this year? I am willing to wager that it will be twice as many next year.

Ork armies just can't finish a game in a reasonable amount of time.

You think they should be able to though... when you have 120 Boyz, how precise do you have to be with your set up?
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Postby Redbeard » Sun May 04, 2008 9:14 pm

You do need to be somewhat precise with them. The key to the army is the forcefield. With 180 orks and a forcefield, your opponent has to inflict 270 (!!!!) wounds on you to kill them all. Without it, only 180. The forcefield has a huge force multiplier effect.

But, it also makes for some fiddly deployment and movement phases. You can't move one mob through another unless there are spaces to move through, and you have to leave space for the tails that keep the outer units covered by the forcefield. It's not just shove all your guys forward, although I know some people do play them like that.

Adding 500 points without a second force org chart isn't going to increase the number of models that much though. I'd probably use that 500 points to add stormboyz, so consider that going for max boyz, I'm adding 20% more models, but they're planning to add 25% more time to the rounds.

I think that will work out ok. Maybe you just accept that if you're playing a horde, or against a horde, you won't get six turns. That's not the fault of the horde player - it's just how it is.

If you put penalties in place for not finishing games/not finishing deployment in a set amount of time, then you might as well just ban horde armies outright and skew the metagame. (Though I would imagine some people wouldn't mind that. :)
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Postby Centurian99 » Sun May 04, 2008 9:57 pm

Maybe another points level? Split the difference - 2250?

I don't want to screw horde armies, but I can see the POV of those who think that 2250 would help keep the field balanced against big bad FW models.
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Postby tulkasulmar » Sun May 04, 2008 11:24 pm

2,250 points sounds good.

I'm used to 2,250 pts, having played tons of WFB RTTs at 2,250 pts. :D
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Postby Nidzilla517 » Mon May 05, 2008 12:30 am

The only problem I see is time frame with so many points. Fred stated that he was able to get in 7 out of 9 games. What about most of the players that are not that experienced in playing soooo fast, like myself. My old brain does not function that fast anymore and I need more than a minute to think of my next move. I usually field a large amount of gaunts and there is no way I will be able to get all turns in 2 1/2 hrs. with 2500 pts. I did not have a hard time this year getting in two complete games, but I didn't play the big horde. 10 minutes to set up is also tight with horde and being penalized for playing horde is gonna make me change my game plan.

I like Bill's statement about keeping the game FUN. Thanks
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Postby Centurian99 » Mon May 05, 2008 12:43 am

Nidzilla517 wrote:I like Bill's statement about keeping the game FUN. Thanks


In a tournament where 158 out of 160 walk away with nothing, it has to be fun. Part of that comes from making sure that everyone understands what's going on when they sign up.

There's certain things that make the Gladiator the Gladiator...but that doesn't mean it can't be a good time. Some of the best, most fun games I've played have been gladiator games...once you get past round 1 and realize you've got no chance of winning the overall...the pressure goes down significantly and you can relax.

Honestly, winning the gladiator is quite cool - I'd be lying if I said otherwise. But the most fun I've had in the Gladiator was last year, when I took an army I knew was going to be outclassed by 95% of the armies there, and saw how well I could do with it. I ended up with the worst Gladiator record I've ever had, but I think I had the most fun. Even though I only got two wins (and both of those minor wins) I had tons of fun.

Anyway, back on topic -

How long of a game do you need with a 2000 pt horde? a 2250 horde? A 2500 horde?

The only armies I've ever played like that are my guard, which don't have to worry about the movement phase.
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Postby Nidzilla517 » Mon May 05, 2008 1:05 am

Centurian99 wrote:
Nidzilla517 wrote:I
How long of a game do you need with a 2000 pt horde? a 2250 horde? A 2500 horde?

The only armies I've ever played like that are my guard, which don't have to worry about the movement phase.


truthfully it all depends on who I am playing against. I know it is hard to judge that and I really try playing fast and that is when I mess up and lose the game.

It is quite a problem you have. My buddy played a Ork horde in the Gladiator and he only got in 3 turns. Very frustrating. I know he plays fast, but the Ork guy was really slow playing it and that is how he won. So, what do u do?

The real problem is when all the gaunts get across and start throwing down 30+ dice at a time. I also have a guard army that I haven't played in years, because I have to be moving. So, to answer your question...
I don't know how much time I need. I know that I do not want to be playing for 11 hrs.!!! then do the TT and then 40k. But that is just me.
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Postby Redbeard » Mon May 05, 2008 5:53 am

Centurian99 wrote:How long of a game do you need with a 2000 pt horde?


If we had an extra half-hour this year, I would have gotten six turns in every game I played.

a 2250 horde? A 2500 horde?


My best guess is that if you're adding 25% more points (2000 to 2500) then you need to add 25% more time.
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Postby Papa_Nurgle » Mon May 05, 2008 6:51 am

Between 2250 and 2500, I like the 2250. Between the three choices, I like 2000 the best.

I think there is a balance of points and 2000 is about the highest I would want to see. At points above that, things tend to just get thrown in. I've got my 2k ork Force already planned for the gladiator and I have 1 elite selection left. So, to get to 2500, I will spend 500 points on a 10 man squad of Mega-Nobs with plenty of bling. Not exactly a tactically sound choice. (or I'll go back and figure out if I can get a Stompa and 180 boys in the same list).

I like the idea of having army building somewhat constrained so that if you take 2 land raiders or a Titan, you're giving up something. I think it's something you may want to playtest a little bit with some of the Forgeworld stuff to see if the first turn of shooting has that much of an effect on the outcome. At 1850 and 2000 points, first turn can be important and when you add another 500 points of stuff, I can see that first turn being all about how much stuff you can take out.

Just my .02. Vote is for 2000 points with slightly longer rounds. 2nd choice is 2250 with longer rounds, and last choice is 2500 with loads of Forgeworld.

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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Mon May 05, 2008 7:25 am

I see a couple choices.

1. Leave the points at 2,000 and increase the time by 15 minutes. I would then start the Gladiator registration at 10:00 AM with first game starting at 11:00 AM. This would give some extra time allow the event to finish at same time.

2. Increase the points to 2,250 and the time by 30 minutes per game. I would then start the Gladiator registration at 9:00 AM with the first game starting at 10:00 AM. This would give some extra time and points. Plus the event would finish at the same time.

I personally would stay away from 2,500 points. I too had two unfinished games in the 'ard Boyz and that is two too many.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Mon May 05, 2008 7:38 am

Why does it sound like this thread has turned into "How do we make the Horde players happy?" Horde lists are an extreme end of the comp spectrum. They are not balanced lists. They are opposite of all Mech lists and we aren't trying to make all mech lists happy. There are a few posters on this forum that have a vested interests in seeing thier horde armies succeed and are attempting to steer the rules in their favor.

Bill - you should have a poll choice be 'yes I would play in the Gladiator at 2500pts, but I would not play in it at 2000pts.' That way those of us who want 2500pts can tell you we won't play if we don't get our way either. It just seems to me that the people who don't want 2500pts can say they won't play at all to try and get their way.

I want a scenario next year with a primary objective that is only obtainable with a unit with an armor value. In the past we have had objectives only obtainable with units with wounds to screw the all mech lists. We should mess with the all wound lists. Before I hear that it is not fair to screw-my-list-whining remember this is the Gladiator. No whining. Every year there are scenarios that mess with extreme army builds whether it be Titans, all mech, all shooting, all assault, etc.. I think it's about time to put the clamps on this horde nonsense.

I mean seriously, without time contraints or enough points to throw in more heavy weapons, how can anyone compete with horde lists. Their two weaknesses are running out of time and being outgunned. If we are increasing the amount of time that favors the horde lists who might not have the time to get all the points. If we then don't increase the points to get more heavy bolters in the lists, then the 6pt Ork will have a field day
Last edited by Generalissimo_Fred on Mon May 05, 2008 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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