2008 Gladiator Comment / 2009 Gladiator Planning Thread

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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:53 pm

I agree with Redbeard. Some the units should be re-catagorized out of 2 slots. Maybe it should be anything with structure points or that requires a second detachment should be 2 Heavy Slots while everything else is only 1 slot (flyers are all 1 Fast Attack slot).
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Postby Nidzilla517 » Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:32 pm

Centurian99 wrote:
Nidzilla517 wrote:Out of curiosity Nidzilla, were you the other guy with a Trygon that I talked to before the Gladiator started?

Yeah, that was me.

And I was serious about playing like you.

Any more tips for the Trygon? Thanks for the first one.


The Trygon is something of a no-brainer. deep strike it in base contact with the largest, juiciest squad you can find, use terrain to screen it from guns (if possible), and hope it lasts for more than a turn. It probably won't.

Taking the Lictor was well worth it - it ensured that the ravener came on NLT turn 3, which was important.

It's best ability is really bringing the Raveners on in the next turn. I only had three, and that seemed to get the job done. Four would have been nice, but I would have had to trade a tyrant guard for it. Six would be utterly devastating, and may be necessary in 40K 5.


I had 6 Ravs. worked well after Trygon came in and died. They destroyed an entire unit, but got shot up after consolidation roll was bad. That was game 1, game 2 worked out better. Had to leave after game 2.
Did you use the Stomp rule at all?? I think I forgot about it in game 1
I didn't think about the Lictor and the re-roll. thanks
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Postby Centurian99 » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:16 pm

Nidzilla517 wrote:I had 6 Ravs. worked well after Trygon came in and died. They destroyed an entire unit, but got shot up after consolidation roll was bad. That was game 1, game 2 worked out better. Had to leave after game 2.
Did you use the Stomp rule at all?? I think I forgot about it in game 1
I didn't think about the Lictor and the re-roll. thanks


I stomped whenever I could. Game 1 I scattered off the target, then charged oblits. Game 2 I think he stomped, but the game was over by turn 3. Game 3 & 4 he stomped some orks...maybe he killed a whole 60 points worth of orks each game!

:(
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Postby Primarch » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:20 pm

I quite disagree with Primarch. I think the amount of Apoc rulage that was used was perfect. The Apoc ruleset is much better for legendary units, flyers, and superheavies than the previous Forge World "rules," so it is great that they were used.

Formations and stratagems belong in regular Apoc games but not in tournaments. Keep them out.




In answer, i could say that Apoc rules shouldnt be used at small numbers, or in tournament games that arent specifically Apoc!


What seemed perfect to you, seemed too much for me, and others. Really, i dont mind the FW stuff, and untill this year, I competed very well in the Gladiator using regular lists.

So if its in the cards that "some" of the Apoc rules are going to be used, then i will have to switch.


One thing I would advise to anyone playing in the Gladiator, bring a copy of the rules with you. DO NOT RELY ON YOUR OPP to know his own rules, or play them right.


After a couple of games in the Glad, i read back on some stuff, and the APOC rules werent being used correctly. I dont think the guys outright cheated, i just think they didnt know.


It makes for a cloudy tournament. But im game, will just have to build some big stuff and play "sort of" Apoc rules.



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Postby biztheclown » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:45 pm

Hmmm. Outside of the somewhat larger blasts, I think that the APOC rules, especially for super heavies, are just hands down better and more balanced than the Imperial Armour rules.

Once you get into formations you get force org chart problems and stratagems that are just clearly unfit for anything but an Apocalypse game; you just can't run tournament Apocalypse, it's not that kind of game.

It is a shame if people were unclear on their own rules. I took the time to type up all of the APOC rules that my Stompa used for each opponent. (it came to 2 double sided pages) This was good for them, and the act of typing it really helped me solidify the rules in my head.
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Postby Primarch » Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:54 pm

Dude, listen to what you are saying, Apoc is not for tournaments, however, lets use some of the rules for Apoc in our tournament?



I dont mind either way, but if you say that stratagems are unbalanced, then how can you say Super-heavies arent? Neither one of them was deisgned to be used in regular tournament games. Neither one is really balanced at 2k points.
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Postby biztheclown » Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:34 pm

I'm not saying you're wrong. And I'm just one participant, who has played in Gladiators with regular lists and with superheavies, with my opinions. I'm just saying that given the fact that Forge World exists, and does in fact make all these cool models, people who get them are going to want an event to use them. The Gladiator is that event.

I just don't think too many people are as jazzed up about the stratagems and formations as they are about their spiffy superheavies and flyers. So in the name of balance, they can be sacrificed. We cannot ban the superheavies though. People would be sad.

The stratagems and formations only really work in the context of 1) the Apocalypse mission, and 2) No Force org chart limits. The gladiator tournament missions and force org chart limits serve as a better balancing act for the superheavies than just opening up the game to the formations and strategems would allow.

How do you design missions if all reserves can potentially come on from any table edge, if some player's units always count as scoring even if below half, if once a game some armies could stratregically re-deploy, blind barrages, bombardments, etc. Designing missions aside, how would you judge that mess?

If you think that makes for a better tournament, OK, but I just disagree.

Another issue is whether certain choices should have special status in the tournament that overrides what the books/datasheets say. Should a Trygon cost 2HS just like other Gargantuans. I don't really care about that, as it is only 300 points. We might want to think about charging 2 HQ slots for the named demons I guess. I'm not sure about other outliers on these issues though.
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Postby Cptn_Snuggles » Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:34 pm

What makes the Gladiator special is the fact that you can #1 Bring stuff you normally can't to tournaments (forgeworld) and #2 play games without having to dance around soft scores (sportsmanship, painting).

#2 is almost satisfied by the invitational for a smack down event. #1, well there aren't too many avenues to run with it. I think you'll see a selection of the people not go if big things get dropped. I could be wrong, but it's half the fun.

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Postby Primarch » Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:38 pm

Ok, its obvious, the volume is turned down on my posts ;)




Nowhere did I say we should remove FW, or the big stuff, NOWHERE. Clear?



Ok, what I did say, was that I prefer to play regular stuff, and would like to be competitive with it. If the people who prefer the big heavy stuff can claim they will all drop out, what about the people who dont play that stuff? There should be as many considerations for them as there are for the others.

As for stuff coming on any table edge and crap like that, who cares? That Stompa broke so many regular rules with all its "specials", what does it matter?

The missions surely can be modified to include all the Apoc rules.


So here we are.


You say;

1. Use all the FW stuff with APOC rules, but dont use any other Apoc rules as they are unbalancing????

2. The missions arent for the other Apoc rules, and cant be fixed???

3. Primarch/Clay, stop suggesting we drop FW stuff!!!!


To that, I say;

1. Wrong, give everyone a chance, and include all that stuff.

2. Modify them so that they work, its not like it cant be done.

3. See above, never said that, never will.


That put us up to date on the debate that's ongoing? ;)



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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu May 01, 2008 10:09 am

All of the FW stuff now uses APOC rules.

If we eliminate all the Apoc rules we eliminate all the FW stuff.

If we decide to write our own rules for every FW item so that we don't use a big template, that will cause more headaches and open the biggest can of worms you can imagine.

If your argument is the FW Apoc stuff is not balanced for standard 2K of 40k, then how can Bill Kim get balanced rules for every FW item by next year. He does not have a host of playtesters at his beck and call 5 days a week.

The truth of the matter is that FW items rarely do well and APOC rules have no bearing on that. The missions themselves are what drives the FW stuff into trouble. It is the missions themselves that sefl regulate and police the army lists for balance.
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Postby Papa_Nurgle » Thu May 01, 2008 10:33 am

Easy there El Heneral...

I'm interested in what the lad has to say.

Primarch,
Okay, can we talk through your 3 points a bit more. I'm a little slow, so you'll have to type slowly. Thanks.

Your points.

1) Include all that stuff.
What do you mean by "all that stuff?" Do you mean lack of Force Org, imcorporation of Apocolypse strategems and rules? turn the tournament into Apocolypse at 2k points? I'm not understand exactly what you mean here. Could you turn up the volume on your monitor so I can see it better.

2) Modify them so that they work, it's not like it cant be done.
Hmmm. Again, lots of pronouns with unclear antecedants. Modify which, apocolypse strategems or the rules for forge world produced units? What are you suggesting and do you have any ideas to go along with that?

You say that you wanted to be competative without using Forge World. This year, 2 of the top 4 had forgeworld, the other two did not (if I have my facts straight). So, half of hte top competitors going in to round 4 had forge world. Seems like the opportunity was there.

The idea behind the Gladiator is to be able to use forgeworld in a tournament. If the rules make people not want to play with forgeworld, then the tournament is not serving its intended purpose. So, how would you change the rules to make in more fair in your perspective? Be specific, cite examples. ;)
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Postby muwhe » Thu May 01, 2008 11:17 am

Well. I think the buck stops with me on this one at least for last year. As it was mainly my call.

I think there are two aspects to the Apocalypse rules.

Aspect 1. They redefined how super heavys, flyers, and gmc's work. They also introduce some new damage classifications, weapons and templates. All of which Forgeworld adopted. If you read the title of IA: Apocalypse - You will notice the text New Rules for Warhammer 40K and Warhammer 40K Apocalypse. From my emails with Warwick it was clear they still want Forgeworld models usable in standard games of 40K and in Apocalypse games. So there is a line to be drawn. The issue and frankly the confusion is that they didn't go back and reprint any Forgeworld models that the Apocalypse book covered and the format for those entries is not the same. Additionally they did not reprint the Apocalypse rules, damage tables. etc... But between the 2 books all the SH, Flyer, GMC models that exist should be updated and moving forward they have the same set of rules. In essence what existed before has been replaced and all the differences are pretty minor .. sure you got big templates and D weapons but frankly that stuff was missing anyways.

Aspect 2. The Apocalypse Rules for Big Games.
Which is a style of big game play. No Force Org charts, strategems, different deployment rules, detachments with additional rules, etc. All sorts of stuff that is above just the use of Forgeworld models.

In short we included what was needed to use the Forgeworld models and left out everything else from the Gladiator. Which is how I think it was intended. There is a line between Forgewold model use and Apocalypse games.

I understand what your saying Clay. It is a discussion that will be done with running of the Gladiator for 2009. Certainly a couple of items need to change .. *cough* Damocles *cough*. But overall I think it worked better than I expected. Honestly your going to have those matchups in the Gladiator every year .. where maybe you just brought a knife to a gunfight. Year 5 I drew Mark Parker w\ Wyche Cult and Dark Lance a plenty on a City Fight table with my Armored Company. It was the only damn table out of 160+ tables that year that offered enough cover for Parker to hide all his raiders. Game was over by turn 4. Marc and I got to drink a few before the next round. It's the Gladiator .. those matchups are bound to happen. Chalk it up .. as part of it. Guess what I had fun regardless. My Maximilian tore it up the rest of the day. First lesson of Gladiator it's never fair. A scenario might bite you, a match up might bite you, the dice might get you....


The Stompa was the MVP this year no doubt with 5-6 of them in the house. But I have a feeling a few guys got plans on how to deal with them next year course who knows if they will even draw one. It's a crap shoot.

Honestly the hardest part was attempting to make sure everyone had the current rules... thanks Yakface for your work on that... and I think this year we will defintely have a "cheat" sheet. Your fielding a Trygon -> Current rules in the Apocalypse book. Etc..


Gladiator 2009 .. one word .. *REAVER*
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Postby artificer » Thu May 01, 2008 12:31 pm

muwhe wrote:Gladiator 2009 .. one word .. *REAVER*



I've already got mine, and am readying the gatling blasters (insert insane laughter here)
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Postby Primarch » Thu May 01, 2008 1:08 pm

What do you mean by "all that stuff?" Do you mean lack of Force Org, imcorporation of Apocolypse strategems and rules? turn the tournament into Apocolypse at 2k points? I'm not understand exactly what you mean here. Could you turn up the volume on your monitor so I can see it better.




Yes, "all that stuff" means all the Apoc rules that were left out this year.




Hmmm. Again, lots of pronouns with unclear antecedants. Modify which, apocolypse strategems or the rules for forge world produced units? What are you suggesting and do you have any ideas to go along with that?



Re-read, I was referring to the missions for the Gladiator, not the Apoc, or FW rules at all. He said the missions wont work within the Apoc rules.



The truth of the matter is that FW items rarely do well and APOC rules have no bearing on that. The missions themselves are what drives the FW stuff into trouble. It is the missions themselves that sefl regulate and police the army lists for balance.




Ok, explain how fair it is when you watch the following for example;




Player A(Eldar, with no FW stuff) Hides his 3 Falcons, Eldrad, Bikes and whatever behind the only piece of terrain there is, sadly its located in the middle of the board, so no true way to hide, just back out of current LOS.


Player B(Orks, with Stompa) Goes first, moves 1 time, fires his Lifta-droppa, no roll to hit mind you, grabs 1 Falcon, drops it on another Falcon and Eldrad.


End result? 2 Dead Falcons, 1 Dead Eldrad, all turn 1, all before the Eldar player could move, or try to get to some LOS blocking terrain.


Player A, then runs what little he has left of his army, 1 more Falcon, a few bikes, up behind a building to try and hide them.


Player B, walks the Stompa up onto the building(walker of course) and kills the rest of the army.



End result, 2 turn game, Eldar player had ZERO chance. With the Strategems, you dont have to take something big to really compete.


Of course you can win the Gladiator without big stuff, its called DRAW. With the sheer numbers, lets say you start at 120 players. 60 with FW, 60 without.


Through 4 rounds, you could have around 4 undefeated guys total, 2 per side. Does that mean that the non-FW armies were competitive? No, it means they got a good draw. Hell, im not even saying there arent times when you could be competitive against certain FW stuff.



What I'm saying is, and this keeps getting missed by most of you is this.


Some of the rules for Apocalypse were used in the Gladiator. This game "addition" was meant for BIG games of 40k, not 2k points. I know that the Gladiator is about the fun stuff, so why not just include the rest of the Apoc rules?

Fix the missions so they work with Apoc rules and throw it all in there. Thats my suggestion.


This isnt whining, ive had my ass whipped in the Gladiator by regular lists too, and ive beaten FW filled armies, UNTIL this year. I'd just like to see all those rules added to balance it out.


Anyone know how many points the stompa is in Apoc?




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Postby flatlanderboss » Thu May 01, 2008 1:12 pm

A Reaver than won't show up until turn 4 of the 4th game...what a waste.

Two kitted out Baneblades at a bit more than that cost would be loads better.

Too bad people can only bring one Baneblade under this years Gladiator rules....

On a side note...assuming IA prints a book with the 'real' (non experimental rules) rules for the Reaver in it...will we allow folks to use their old "Armor Cast" Reavers since an official model will be out?

It will come up. You KNOW it will, and we'd better have a definitive answer prepared. Even if it's "We'll address tha later" answer :)

Because, I don't have one fully painted in the basement or anytyhing like a few of you do.
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