2008 Gladiator Comment / 2009 Gladiator Planning Thread

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Postby Centurian99 » Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:48 pm

Superheavies/titans have always been a part of the Gladiator.
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Postby Primarch » Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:40 pm

Yeah, but the APOC rules have not. The bigger templates and things just started this year. Apocalypse is brand new to Adepticon, based on your other post, it seems its been a part of the Gladiator for years now.



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Postby Carrick » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:17 pm

Start on time. Finish on time. Every round. I don't want to hear the organisers whining again next year. Or anyone stuck in the traffic caused by roadworks announced three months in advance - tough, you missed the first round.

Chess Clocks. You run out of time - go to the bar, your game is over.
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Postby Nidzilla517 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 6:48 pm

Primarch wrote:Its part of the fun of the Gladiator? This is the first year it was used. Im not sure how the history of Adepticon Gladiator was based on something that just got introduced.


Its fine if it stays, but if you cant bring something big, the likelihood of winning is very, very low.


Guess i will either not play, or start working on something APOC style, on a side not, since not all the Apoc rules were used, i dont think that was very fair either. I would say put in full APOC, or increase the points, a Stompa wasnt meant to be in a 2k point game.



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I have to agree with you to some point. I was also disturbed by the new Apoc. rules. Considering the time frame I had to understand those rules. And not having an Apoc NEW book. So, I wish I wouldv'e read up on the rules sooner. My MASS point was eliminated. That will probably be my last Gladiator if the Apoc stays. MAybe I will volunteer to disqualify WHINERS at the game table.

On a good note, in response to your comment on having big things and not winning...I thought the same thing when I saw the Heirophant coming at me in turn ONE!!!! right in the middle of the table. Now I was also playing BUgs, of course, but I didn't think I had a chance against my own race. FOrtunately for me, I killed everything around it and then concentrated on the BIG thing. BY turn 5, all 10 wounds were gone and so was the game. Thank God for Rending claws, and alot of them. I know that if I wouldn't have had 15 + rending attacks every turn, I would have been piecemeal for it.
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Postby Centurian99 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:07 pm

Nidzilla517 wrote:I have to agree with you to some point. I was also disturbed by the new Apoc. rules. Considering the time frame I had to understand those rules. And not having an Apoc NEW book. So, I wish I wouldv'e read up on the rules sooner. My MASS point was eliminated. That will probably be my last Gladiator if the Apoc stays. Maybe I will volunteer to disqualify WHINERS at the game table.


The fact that Apoc rules for FW would be used was posted as part of the Gladiator rules once the IA:Apoc update was released (and was in the e-mail that was sent to all Gladiator pre-regs).

Out of curiosity Nidzilla, were you the other guy with a Trygon that I talked to before the Gladiator started?

Seriously though, forgeworld and superheavies have always been allowed at the gladiator. The only difference this past year was that apoc was released, which essentially re-wrote the rules for how all that stuff worked.

We've been told by FW that the IA:Apoc datafax will now be the standard for all FW releases, so banning Apoc rules would essentially mean banning Forgeworld...which I can tell you flat out is not going to happen, because the FW silliness is a part of what the Gladiator is all about.

BTW, yes, it sucks that mass points are gone. On the other hand, that's one less rule that I have to explain to an opponent.

There have been six AdeptiCon Gladiator champions. 3 used no forgeworld at all, one guy (Hank) used a lot of forgeworld - the super-bloodthirster and some of the chaos MCs - and I used 3 cyclopses the first time, and the trygon the second time. But there's always been the titans, the flyers, the superheavies, and the gargantuan creatures present.

This year, the big change was the release of Apoc, which included new rules for all the FW stuff. Are the 7" and 10" templates, bombing templates, and hellstorm templates so unbalancing where having a heirodule with mass points wasn't? Wasn't this the year when D-weapons were supposed to reign supreme? If so, why didn't they? Of the four of us who went in to the fourth round with a good chance of success, I had a trygon, and there was the Ork mek stompa.

What was the balancing factor? I would hazard a guess that its the objective-based mission structure. The D-weapon heavy armies (the ones built around the revenant /w pulsars or warhounds /w turbo-lasers), tended to be low on the model count - which means that they have a hard time keeping enough units alive to achieve objectives.

The biggest thing is that some people look at the Gladiator and see it solely as a winner-take-all slugfest, like the 'Ard Boyz. It's not just that - it's also a tournament where the really fun and cool models that people spend lots of dough on get a chance to be used on the tabletop in a competitive setting. In my opinion, neither is more important than the other, which is why I'd like to find some sort of balance.

Adding points might be a way to do that...if we can ensure that there's enough time for the games. In my opinion, I think that the 'Ard Boyz showed that you can do a 2500 point game in 2.5 hours. That may be the direction that we want to take the Gladiator...
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Postby Nidzilla517 » Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:05 pm

Centurian99 wrote:
Nidzilla517 wrote:I have to agree with you to some point. I was also disturbed by the new Apoc. rules. Considering the time frame I had to understand those rules. And not having an Apoc NEW book. So, I wish I wouldv'e read up on the rules sooner. My MASS point was eliminated. That will probably be my last Gladiator if the Apoc stays. Maybe I will volunteer to disqualify WHINERS at the game table.


The fact that Apoc rules for FW would be used was posted as part of the Gladiator rules once the IA:Apoc update was released (and was in the e-mail that was sent to all Gladiator pre-regs).

Out of curiosity Nidzilla, were you the other guy with a Trygon that I talked to before the Gladiator started?

Seriously though, forgeworld and superheavies have always been allowed at the gladiator. The only difference this past year was that apoc was released, which essentially re-wrote the rules for how all that stuff worked.

We've been told by FW that the IA:Apoc datafax will now be the standard for all FW releases, so banning Apoc rules would essentially mean banning Forgeworld...which I can tell you flat out is not going to happen, because the FW silliness is a part of what the Gladiator is all about.

BTW, yes, it sucks that mass points are gone. On the other hand, that's one less rule that I have to explain to an opponent.

There have been six AdeptiCon Gladiator champions. 3 used no forgeworld at all, one guy (Hank) used a lot of forgeworld - the super-bloodthirster and some of the chaos MCs - and I used 3 cyclopses the first time, and the trygon the second time. But there's always been the titans, the flyers, the superheavies, and the gargantuan creatures present.

This year, the big change was the release of Apoc, which included new rules for all the FW stuff. Are the 7" and 10" templates, bombing templates, and hellstorm templates so unbalancing where having a heirodule with mass points wasn't? Wasn't this the year when D-weapons were supposed to reign supreme? If so, why didn't they? Of the four of us who went in to the fourth round with a good chance of success, I had a trygon, and there was the Ork mek stompa.

What was the balancing factor? I would hazard a guess that its the objective-based mission structure. The D-weapon heavy armies (the ones built around the revenant /w pulsars or warhounds /w turbo-lasers), tended to be low on the model count - which means that they have a hard time keeping enough units alive to achieve objectives.

The biggest thing is that some people look at the Gladiator and see it solely as a winner-take-all slugfest, like the 'Ard Boyz. It's not just that - it's also a tournament where the really fun and cool models that people spend lots of dough on get a chance to be used on the tabletop in a competitive setting. In my opinion, neither is more important than the other, which is why I'd like to find some sort of balance.

Adding points might be a way to do that...if we can ensure that there's enough time for the games. In my opinion, I think that the 'Ard Boyz showed that you can do a 2500 point game in 2.5 hours. That may be the direction that we want to take the Gladiator...


I guess I was kinda distraught due to the fact that I thought I had the newest FW book and basically, it wasn't. I bought the Trygon because of the Gladiator and just started playing again after a couple of years off. So, to get back into the game again and find out the book that I recently bought was no good anymore, was bad for me. The group that I game with never use the Apoc rules due to the length of the game. So, I guess I am in a pickle about the Trygon. I am not a real big fan of the Godzilla army, not like my name suggests, and truthfully have never played that way. I like Speed and troops, so the new rules should play right into my hands.

I am glad that I didn't come up against any D-weapons, but I only played two games. Your right though, Gladiator is a Slugfest, as you called it, so do you think that the missions would get easier to acomodate the superheavies, or is a Disadvantage to take them now?? Thankfully I did not get hit with a 10" template. Although I had them pretty spread out, but one hit and there goes one or two broods.

I understand that Apoc is here to stay...so I either get used to it or look forward to the 40k Championship.

I guess if you take the BIG boys, your amount of models is cut drastically. 1 Heiraphant and 20 other models=2000 pt. Doesn't look good for objective based games.

When they took the mass point away, you would think they wouldv'e given an extra wound? If I remember right, they didn't.

I just hope that one day, I will be a great commander as you Bill.
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Postby muwhe » Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:55 am

The issue this year was that we got caught between systems. It's clear we wanted to keep Forgeworld part of the Gladiator. It was not determined till very late in the game by Forgeworld with the release of IA: Apocalypse that moving forward the core rules from Apocalypse would be used for all Forgeworld models.

Honestly for all the confusion that exists around the FW/Apoc stuff this year... I was pleasantly surprised we did not have more issues.

With a year under our belt it should be even smoother.

Keep in mind prior to Apocalypse .. some Forgeworld models had big templates. ( Bombard, etc.. )

It certainly is a different deal ..... the Stompa was definitely an MVP for a good number of people. However, as I think was the case. Scenarios are designed to challenge all types of armies... if your horde heavy, or super heavy, if your all shooty or all assaulty, be prepared to face a mission that puts a one trick pony list at a disadvantage.
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Postby flatlanderboss » Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:05 am

Kind of a cross-genre suggestion...but Privateer Press has had a LOT of success running large, skilled and high-level tournaments with each player bringing....wait for it....TWO lists {from the same codex of course}.

If you want people to be "able" to play with more of their cool and painted stuff, but keep the points value at 2000 and the time for each game the same, perhaps investigate the ideo of having Gladiator players bring two 2000 point lists to choose from. With possible rule that they don't "have" to bring two, but if they do, they must at least use each list in one round.

Which list to pick? Don't share army lists at first. Just tell your opponent, "I'm playing Vraksian Renegades" and let him pick his list (and you yours) from him saying "I'm playing Orks."

I know there will be late-round intelligence reports abounding (Dude. Como has 8 BattleWagons in one of his Ork forces, make sure to bring your SAFH version of your guard) and what not.

I like the side-bar idea from above, but that takes it to a 2500 points level which might dissuade a lot of players. Won't dissuade me one bit. Make it 3000 points for all I care...just open it to TWO detachments if the second one has any warmachines in it.

Just an idea. If Sparks and Kim can't figure out a way to sell that to Gladiator players...nobody can.

Edit...and for missions where a unit is held in reserve and it's your opponent's choice, maybe you won't bring the list with the 1200 big bug in it :)
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Postby Primarch » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:49 pm

I dont think you are reading me clearly Bill. Some of the Apoc rules were used, ALL of them werent used.


How many points are Aoc battles supposed to be? Im quite sure its more than 2k. Also, i dont think anyone asked for FW to be left out, and if FW=Apoc now, then so be it.


But next year, put ALL the Apoc rules in, dont just pick and choose. Some of the formations and strats and things from the book, to make it fair for people who dont want to bring a super heavy.


Its on you to decide, and whatever you decide I will be fine with, but it sure would be nice to include all the rules for the addition, instead of selectively picking what you want to use.



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Postby biztheclown » Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:58 pm

I quite disagree with Primarch. I think the amount of Apoc rulage that was used was perfect. The Apoc ruleset is much better for legendary units, flyers, and superheavies than the previous Forge World "rules," so it is great that they were used.

Formations and stratagems belong in regular Apoc games but not in tournaments. Keep them out.

I dig the idea of sideboards.
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Postby Nidzilla517 » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:17 pm

biztheclown wrote:I quite disagree with Primarch. I think the amount of Apoc rulage that was used was perfect. The Apoc ruleset is much better for legendary units, flyers, and superheavies than the previous Forge World "rules," so it is great that they were used.

Formations and stratagems belong in regular Apoc games but not in tournaments. Keep them out.

I dig the idea of sideboards.


When I saw the new Apoc book and read through a few rules, I first thought is was for Massive army lists, 3000+. I can see using those rules due to the amount of models. But 2000 pt. and a Big 10" template could mean complete devistation on turn 1. And to spread out the army to avoid the big template, totally plays against most armies. At least my armies. I can handle the FW Big Guys, but that 10" scares me and I cannot run far enough from them.
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Postby Nidzilla517 » Tue Apr 29, 2008 6:23 pm

Out of curiosity Nidzilla, were you the other guy with a Trygon that I talked to before the Gladiator started?

Yeah, that was me.

And I was serious about playing like you.

Any more tips for the Trygon? Thanks for the first one.
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Postby Centurian99 » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:07 pm

Nidzilla517 wrote:Out of curiosity Nidzilla, were you the other guy with a Trygon that I talked to before the Gladiator started?

Yeah, that was me.

And I was serious about playing like you.

Any more tips for the Trygon? Thanks for the first one.


The Trygon is something of a no-brainer. deep strike it in base contact with the largest, juiciest squad you can find, use terrain to screen it from guns (if possible), and hope it lasts for more than a turn. It probably won't.

Taking the Lictor was well worth it - it ensured that the ravener came on NLT turn 3, which was important.

It's best ability is really bringing the Raveners on in the next turn. I only had three, and that seemed to get the job done. Four would have been nice, but I would have had to trade a tyrant guard for it. Six would be utterly devastating, and may be necessary in 40K 5.
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Postby Centurian99 » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:16 pm

Primarch wrote:I dont think you are reading me clearly Bill. Some of the Apoc rules were used, ALL of them werent used.

How many points are Aoc battles supposed to be? Im quite sure its more than 2k. Also, i dont think anyone asked for FW to be left out, and if FW=Apoc now, then so be it.

But next year, put ALL the Apoc rules in, dont just pick and choose. Some of the formations and strats and things from the book, to make it fair for people who dont want to bring a super heavy.

Its on you to decide, and whatever you decide I will be fine with, but it sure would be nice to include all the rules for the addition, instead of selectively picking what you want to use.

Clay


My problem with using formations and assets is that it then puts the assets into play. I'm not sure how I feel about that...the strategic assets can be significantly unbalancing, and don't necessarily jive with the way that Gladiator missions are set up or the table size used.

In addition, the Apoc rules are designed for use without a Force Org chart. Which doesn't exactly jive with the way everything else works.

So basically, the gladiator is always going to be something of a compromise. Having most superheavies/gargantuans counting as two HS choices seems to work fairly well (as no gladiator champion has ever taken a FW item that counted as multiple FO slots). 10 inch templates can be scary...but the 7" template existed pre-apoc, was used in previous gladiators, and no one complained.

D-weapons were supposed to be the end-all, be-all this year...and they weren't.

I did have a thought....what would people feel about pre-seeding the Gladiator based on Forgeworld content? Just a simple attempt to pair up players who bring forgeworld with each other, in round 1, and in future rounds when points allow (since a swiss system is used).
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Postby Redbeard » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:25 pm

I don't know who thought 'd' weapons would win it this year. I didn't. I thought that the big stuff that had a chance was the stuff that didn't cost two force org slots.

'D' weapons come on expensive platforms and really, I'm not sure 'd' is all that much better than 10. The 'd' weapons out there at a reasonable price don't fire really big template either, if I recall correctly. You're better off with a 10" template at S10 if you're running a warhound, than you are with the laser destroyer at 5", D. IMO.

I think the key to the big stuff was the fact that it's not all two-slot stuff anymore, and your trygon, for all your claims of 'not doing much' is one of the better picks out there.

I think there is a discrepancy that should be evaluated for next year, between the stuff in the IA-Apocalypse book and the GW-Apoc book. It doesn't make a lot of sense that a Thunderbolt or Nightwing counts as two fast-attack slots, while a Lightning or Phoenix is a single heavy support slot. The two books aren't in sync with what's allowed in normal games, and since GW published rules for FW models in their Apoc book, some of the stuff seems to have been caught in the mix.
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