Round 1 Seeding

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Round 1 Seeding

Postby Papa_Nurgle » Thu Apr 24, 2008 6:38 am

This comes out of Janthkin's comment about Round 1 seeding in the tournaments in the Theme thread.

Basically, is it better to seed the "known" players in round 1 and then swiss seed from there, or is it better to be completely random?

I believe the reason is that if all the "known" players/teams get random seeding you end up with very close scores at the end of the day which makes it more difficult to determine seeding in the final round, leading to -"I was undefeated and never played the overall winner and lost by 1 point , what a load of monkey dung that was."

Pros:
Known players face a tougher road than unknown "out of towners."
First game is more of a challenge to regular tournament goers - 'cause who likes to show up to a game knowing that they have completely outclassed the poor slob across the table.

Cons:
Makes for fewer repeat winners.
1st round wins are rare because good players do not give up the points - making it almost easier for the unknowns because the top level are knocked out early. (Could this be a pro as it allows more people a realistic chance to win?)

What are your thoughts, and how would you do it?
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Postby Redbeard » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:06 am

Think of it from the perspective of repeat players too. Especially locals who are known. Bob and Joe play each other regularly in local tournaments, and then get matched up in the first round of adepticon because of it?

My vote is for leaving round 1 completely random. Yeah, some newbies will have to face Bill Kim or Greg Sparks - but those are the breaks. I had to play Bill first round in the gladiator last year - and it knocked us both out of contention. Just because someone is new to adepticon doesn't mean it's an auto-win for a good player.
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Postby Zero_Cool » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:17 am

Redbeard wrote:Think of it from the perspective of repeat players too. Especially locals who are known. Bob and Joe play each other regularly in local tournaments, and then get matched up in the first round of adepticon because of it?

My vote is for leaving round 1 completely random. Yeah, some newbies will have to face Bill Kim or Greg Sparks - but those are the breaks. I had to play Bill first round in the gladiator last year - and it knocked us both out of contention. Just because someone is new to adepticon doesn't mean it's an auto-win for a good player.


Agreed.

Tournament seeding should only be used in events that have a scored (win/loss) number of games/season ahead of them such as the NCAA basketball tourny and professional tennis tournaments. In those tournaments teams/individuals are ranked according to their performance over the year(s) and the top seeds play the lower seeds in the opening rounds. The lower seeded team actually has a more difficult road to the championship than the top seeds. If this seeding style was to be used (I am not sure how this would be possible with teams coming from all over the country and last minute entries) then the known top players of the tourney would never be paired in the first round. These tournaments are also not a Swiss style, but a bracket system, and the winner is crowned by victories alone.

Adepticon uses the Swiss style tournament format that matches teams against each other based on their record from that event only. Teams with similar records play each other in all rounds. In the first round, all teams have the same record (0 wins/0 losses), so everyone should be matched up at random.
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Postby Shawn-C-Carroll » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:18 am

I'd suggest total random seating all rounds. Swiss ranking can lead to people losing the first round to get lower level opponents in order to demolish them while the higher ranked players batter each other. It can also allow a clear front runner to demolish players that had a legitimate chance for some of the runners-up awards. In a such a small number of rounds compared to the number of participants, random pairing could be a fair judge of players.
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Postby Shotgun » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:24 am

As long as you don't end up with same club in the first round, I say random seeding for everyone. No one wants to play the guy they drove up with first thing out of the chute, and something like that is preventable.

But, to take it the next step and set seed known players just isn't fair to anyone involved. Suppose Chua and Fred decide to play. Is it fair to knowingly pair them against each other because they are on a smae skill level? Or is it unfair to pair them because you know you will kick one out of contention early? What happens when cries of "favoritism" ring out because known local X was seeded against known longdistance guy Y and the local won?

I agree that its not really "right" when the random pairings kick out Chua playing against little Sally from Saint Mary's Sisters of the Blind Warhammer 40K and Crochet Club, but those things can be corrected by either magnaminous judges doing a bit of pre-round table sliding, or rely on the fact that the "known" won't be an asshat in winning, and if they are, the "no asshat" rules of Adepticon kick in.
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Postby Matthias » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:13 am

The biggest problem with team matching that I see is the ebb and flow of team members and team name changes. You risk the issue of pairing up Almighty Masters of Death against the 40K Brutalizers in round one but maybe the AMoD only have 2 of the same players from the year previous and effectively are not the same team. Or say the AMoD changed their name in '09 to Adeptus Asskicus (tm) along with a dozen other teams....maybe we know most of the teams but there is a chance that a team that did decently in the year previous will slip through the cracks and get seeded as a new team.

It is just a logistical quagmire, and while I have no doubt it was done properly - I am just not sure if it is worth the hassle in the end.
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Postby Wild_Bill » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:13 am

In context of Adepticon and the large # of players in each event.

Seeding the first round based on a preceived "skill" level is a flat out INSULT to any one not personally known by the organizer. It delievers the message that if the judge never heard of you, your not that good.

Arranging "Grudge" matches in the first round is also an unfair practice. One side plots and plans then issues a Grudge style challenge against a preceived nemesis. The nemesis hasn't spent the last 4 months plotting so great defensive scheme is at a disadvantage. But what are they going to do, saying no to the challenge causes them to lose face and be labeled as chickens. If grudge matches are allowed then you can expect a sharp increase of players wandering the halls early chatting up players, until they find a newbie whose army is ill prepared to handle theirs, and then BINGO the issue of a grudge match challenge against someone they never even faced before. Just so they can get an easy win.

The first round should be random with the only seeding being seperate people from the same club. After that let the scores decide.
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Postby Matthias » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:21 am

My post only applies to the Team Tournament and Teams being seeded on their previous years Team Tournament record only - not their perceived skill at all. Nor are we talking about a grudge style system at all (this has never been and never will be used) - the teams would have no say in first round pairings.

EDIT: As far as I know seeding was ONLY done in the TT, and like I said that was based on the previous year's TT. Seeding would be impossible on an individual level in an event like the Championships.
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Postby Drunken Mick » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:32 am

I know this is 40K/WHF heavy but let me say very sincerely. Pairing up players based on "perceived" skill is exactly what Wild Bill summed it up to. An INSULT to a new tournament player. Just because a player is new to the circuit does NOT mean they have no experience or "suck" at the game they play. That's a BIG leap of faith to make. This was my first national tournament, 2nd tournament period and my team won against a tough field and tough opponents. I've been in the hobby for 5 months so labeling a newb as an easy target doesn't always fit the mold. Separating club members (as has been said) as much as possible in round one, then from there out play ball!
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Postby Matthias » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:45 am

Please stop the thread hi-jacking over some made up accusation.

Players/Teams at AdeptiCon were NOT seeded by perceived skill AT ALL
. No one thinks this is a good idea at all and to attempt to associate this idea with AdeptiCon events is an insult in and of itself.

The thread title and focus is a bit ambiguous- so let me put this back on topic.

1. Individual Tournaments events at AdeptiCon did not/nor never will be seeded by perceived skill or any other manner. Random pairings for Round 1 avoiding people from the same Game Club is how it has always been done.

2. This year (and last year if I remember correctly) - the 40K Team Tournament (and the 40K Team Tournament only) was seeded only by the teams record from the previous year's 40K Team Tournament. Period. Round 1 of 2008 was seeded as if there was going to be a 5th game in 2007. This is what should be being discussed - anything else is simply off track.
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Postby Ed » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:50 am

And now you know why my team changes its name every year.

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Postby Papa_Nurgle » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:56 am

So seeding at the team tournament?

Good, basing round 1 as a continuation of the last year's tournament OR

Let it be random.
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Postby Jeff » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:11 am

As Matt has mentioned, ALL tournaments at AdeptiCon had random first round seeding EXCEPT for the 40k Team Tournament. So the LoTR and Fantasy players have been spared from being INSULTED. The 40k Team Tournament is not your typical 40k single player tournament. It has different nuances than your standard RTT-style event does (using a mulligan to obtain the first turn may be an insult to your opponents, combing your Orks horde with an IG gunline may be an insult to your opponents, etc etc) The first round seeding for this year's 40k TT was done in a fashion based on overall (not Battle) points from 2007. As Matt had mentioned, you can think of it as a 2007 Overall tiebreaker round. As such, it is very likely the team (if you were a returning team) was one you did not play last year (hence, no grudge matches) and was also on the same "level" as your team. Hopefully, this would have made for a good game to start off the event for returning attendees. Would it have been a challenging game? Quite likely. A fun game? Hopefully! And that is what the event is really about. Having fun with toy soldiers. Does it give returning teams a disadvantage and new teams an advantage? Possibly. But then again, if you look at the 2006, 2007, and 2008 final standings (which were all seeded this way), you'll see a lot of familiar faces at the top. As always, we'll definitely take AdeptiCon players' feedback into consideration for future events to improve them.

PS: Changing your team name (i.e. Two Tau One Cup, Codex Toldeo, etc) would not have helped you. I track stats at the player level.
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:36 am

Jeff wrote: But then again, if you look at the 2006, 2007, and 2008 final standings (which were all seeded this way), you'll see a lot of familiar faces at the top.


Uh - Jeff - 2007 was not seeded that way. Otherwise 2 Oblit 2 Quit 2 would have faced off against SoCal in round one. Plus, Casus Belli would not have faced off against the ever so powerful Underminers in the first round.

Jeff wrote: PS: Changing your team name (i.e. Two Tau One Cup, Codex Toldeo, etc) would not have helped you. I track stats at the player level.


We can vouch for this since we change our name every year and somehow get stuck playing as the #1 or #2 seed. At least NATO and Da Boyz have that honor in 2009.

And Joe Adams / Checkmate Hobbies better not drop out for 2009. We want the opportunity to send them back to clubbin' baby seals again after round 1. :P
Last edited by Inquisitor_Malice on Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Centurian99 » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:39 am

If I could add my 2 cents:

2007 Rankings: Top 4
1 - Checkmate
2 - 2 Oblit/Saim Heinous/Glance
3 - Dakka Detachment 1
4 - Casus Belli

Said four teams play each other in round 1 of 2008, 1 v 2, 3 v 4

2008 rankings:
3 - Checkmate
4 - 2 Oblit/Saim Heinous/Glance
5 - Dakka Detachment 1
6 - Casus Belli

So essentially what happened is that our four teams spent rounds 2-4 clubbing baby seals.
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