New CONSTRUCTIVE comments Team Tournament thread

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Re: When I was a kid.....

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:13 pm

Jeff wrote:
Wild_Bill wrote:Here's a suggestion for the team tournament since it has grown to huge unwieldy proportions.


Which AdeptiCon players said it was unwieldly and too big?

Wild_Bill wrote:Every year right after Adepticon there is a influx of bitching about players cheating, or precieved cheating, not knowing rules, taking too long, stalling


I must have missed this thread as well...



Here it is Jeff. Matt locked it a few days back.

forums/viewtopic.php?t=1865


It's not like everyone was complaining, but it's not like everyone posts here. I heard all in all it was a good event weekend, but as Bill says some people always complain.
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Postby Matthias » Thu Apr 24, 2008 4:51 pm

I fail to see how this any different than the previous 5 years. The convention grew 20%, rightfully so the concerns/complaining will grow 20% also.

No tournament convention in the world, especially one based on a game so equally loved and despised by it's player-base, will ever make everyone happy...but we have always tried, and in the end I think you will find that an overwhelming majority of people that actually attended AdeptiCon in fact had a good time. Primary mission accomplished.

Edit: I went back over that thread and none of the above implied stuff is in there save one comment by Fred (who I am assuming is working off secondhand observations)...who suggested scaling back the tournament therefore suggesting it was too unwieldy. Most of the concerns emanating from this year revolve around theme judging, hotel food/parking prices and whole "you can't bring that army because it won" argument. All easily addressable within our current structure.

People really need to stop attempting to associate additional negativity with the convention. It will only distract the discussions and prevent people from taking on the real issues at hand.
Last edited by Matthias on Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby blood angel » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:25 pm

This is my main issue at hand and I would at least like it acknowledged.

So far it has gone ignored for a couple of pages.

Again, please do not take this as sour grapes.

blood angel wrote:I find it very hard to believe that simply not having a display board that all fit together or a 'display piece' to set all the figures on is worth a drastic ding in the theme score as long as the display boards being used looked nice and showed ingenuity/creativity.

These types of comments are hard for me to post because I truly love adepticon. I think it is the best event in the country for warhammer and I think the team tournament is the most prestigious event for 40k.

It just seems like some of the subjective scores are a little all over the place.

So what I've gotten from the post Matthias made was that all the effort put in our display boards, fluff packet, banner, theme story and display bases only accounted for 17% of the total points possible to award for this category?

The fluff packet alone should have been worth 7 points (maybe 5 with conservative judging).

All eldar army - 20 points, check - 17 page professionally created fluff packet, full color and spiral bound, 5 points - check - matching shirts, banner, theme story written specifically for adepticon also printed and handed to judges with a spare copy in a plexi glass display next to the armies - .33 points each - check. Grand total - 26. Is this what we're looking at here?

Really, I'm asking because this greatly effects the type of effort we put in next year.

I'd rather not get started on painting scores :)
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Apr 24, 2008 7:47 pm

Matthias wrote:Edit: I went back over that thread and none of the above implied stuff is in there save one comment by Fred (who I assuming is working of secondhand observations)...who suggested scaling back the tournament therefore suggesting it was too unwieldy. Most of the concerns emanating from this year revolve around theme judging, hotel food/parking prices and whole "you can't bring that army because it won" argument. All easily addressable within our current structure.

People really need to stop attempting to associate additional negativity with the convention. It will only distract the discussions and prevent people from taking on the real issues at hand.



If you are referring to my one comment in the locked thread it was this.

How about 850pts for each team in the team event. Make everyone take an HQ choise and 1-3 troop choices and keep everything else the same. You'll have 1700pt lists (per team) that should finish on time.

I think this will work really well, especially since 5th edition will be out by then and troops will be the only scoring units available. It still prevents competitive people from skimping out on troop choices while giving them the tactical flexibilty to customize lists and play in a reasonable amount of time.


Which was suggested in response to this by Blackmoor.

#2. I know tradition is strong at Adepticon, but they might want to reduce the point limit, or add some time. With the addition of Orks it is very hard to get past turn #4. With a heavy emphasis on objectives, it is vital that everyone gets in 6 full turns.

And in response to this by Inquisitor Malice, both tourney regulars.

We had similar problems on Saturday. Out of three games that only went to turn five (and that's after having to push our opponents), two of them were against orks. Personally, from now on - I am going to keep an eye on the clock and if we are not at the bottom of turn three by the 1 hour mark, I will start speeding up my game and asking my opponent to do the same. Our army came into it's own on turn 5-6 and we did not get to take advantage of it. In fact, in one of our games against orks Brad and I just setup our entire force instead of alternating and it still didn't help.

Also, one suggestion to who ever is running the clock. If the clock is messed up don't drop 10 minutes off the clock when it is indicating 18 minutes left to go. In round 1, I saw almost 10 minutes knocked off within the span of 10 seconds, which brought the time down to 9 minutes from 18. That caused major problems in our game and is not fair to either opponent. If organizers make a mistake like this and catch it with limited time left to go, they should just eat the mistake and work to catch up on it by reducing the breaks between the rounds.



I guess the second hand information I was using was posted just above my own and by established tourney regulars who implied, themselves, the tourney was to large and unwieldy.

I have no doubt this was the best Adepticon ever. I am in no way trying to extinguish the flame that is Adepticon. I was merely sticking up for Bill when Jeff said that no one had ever said the con was to big and no one complained about a thing. I think Mr. Blood Angel is bringing up his 'concern' again, which in all fairness to him, is in the same vein as what we hear every year just after Adepticon.

I'm not saying it's good and I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's par for the course. Matt is absolutely correct in saying you can't please everybody all the time. I know that and I think it is foolish to even attempt to do that. I'm just sticking up for Bill, that's all.
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:19 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:I think Mr. Blood Angel is bringing up his 'concern' again, which in all fairness to him, is in the same vein as what we hear every year just after Adepticon.


Actually, Paul's concern is very valid and covers a quality control issue which I am detailing in a several page report that I will be submitting within the next week for review.
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:28 pm

Also as a side note on the size of the event - I don't the size is a problem. I think with horde armies, players need to:

1. Understand that they do not have the luxury of thinking about all of their moves as long as their opponents doe.

2. Be willing to ask their opponents to assist with moving.

3. Know that if they are not experienced enough to finish a game, then they should switch to smaller armies.

4. Be aware that their opponent may ask them to move faster and not get insulted or irritated by this.

Each player owes their opponent the right to finish a game in the allotted time. If you take a larger force, it does not mean that you are allotted a larger amount of time to move. Horde players (IG, Nids, Orks) need to simply move faster.

A good example is Da Boyz who know that they have to move faster with a larger horde force. I believe that they finished most if not all of their games.
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Postby blood angel » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:33 pm

Generalissimo_Fred wrote:
I have no doubt this was the best Adepticon ever. I am in no way trying to extinguish the flame that is Adepticon. I was merely sticking up for Bill when Jeff said that no one had ever said the con was to big and no one complained about a thing. I think Mr. Blood Angel is bringing up his 'concern' again, which in all fairness to him, is in the same vein as what we hear every year just after Adepticon.

I'm not saying it's good and I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's par for the course. Matt is absolutely correct in saying you can't please everybody all the time. I know that and I think it is foolish to even attempt to do that. I'm just sticking up for Bill, that's all.


My name is Paul Murphy.

Thanks for attempting to trivialize my concern with 'quotes' but it really just shows your lack of understanding of the situation. I have given my prais to Adepticon in multiple post. The praise that I and other members of my teams have given to adepticon has grown the numbers that have come from our area to the convention from 8 to almost 20. I am not throwing wild accusations. I know what makes up a 'good looking army' I know how to pretty much maximize the soft scores and over the years we thought we had the theme formula figured out. I am asking why we didn't do better. I am asking HOW we can do better.

I am sorry if YOU don't feel these are valid.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:44 pm

You mean like posting a chess clock at each table and calculating how much time each side uses for their turn. We instituted a chess clock in DBA and HOTT miniature games at Games Plus on a limited basis and it has drasticaly cut down the playing time of games while still keeping the enjoyment factor for even the slowest players pre-clock.

A chess clock at each table would eliminate the one player from monopolizing the turn for a team of two players. There wouldn't be enough time. A Chess clock would also punish players who take to long to get to the table they are assigned to. I'm not talking about starting the clock as soon as assignments are up, but when the tourney organizor says go and only one person is at the table, their time starts to run.

What to do when a player runs out of time? They forfit their turn. No one moves, no one shoots but close combat is still played. Only the player with time left can do these actions in their turn.

Clocks run $20-30 bucks each. 91 teams = 91 clocks. 4 players per team means a one time fee of $5 for each player in the team tourney would get you almost all the clocks in one year.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:47 pm

blood angel wrote:
Generalissimo_Fred wrote:
I have no doubt this was the best Adepticon ever. I am in no way trying to extinguish the flame that is Adepticon. I was merely sticking up for Bill when Jeff said that no one had ever said the con was to big and no one complained about a thing. I think Mr. Blood Angel is bringing up his 'concern' again, which in all fairness to him, is in the same vein as what we hear every year just after Adepticon.

I'm not saying it's good and I'm not saying it's bad. I'm just saying it's par for the course. Matt is absolutely correct in saying you can't please everybody all the time. I know that and I think it is foolish to even attempt to do that. I'm just sticking up for Bill, that's all.


My name is Paul Murphy.

Thanks for attempting to trivialize my concern with 'quotes' but it really just shows your lack of understanding of the situation. I have given my prais to Adepticon in multiple post. The praise that I and other members of my teams have given to adepticon has grown the numbers that have come from our area to the convention from 8 to almost 20. I am not throwing wild accusations. I know what makes up a 'good looking army' I know how to pretty much maximize the soft scores and over the years we thought we had the theme formula figured out. I am asking why we didn't do better. I am asking HOW we can do better.

I am sorry if YOU don't feel these are valid.



Paul go cry somewhere else. I don't want to hear it. I never said you had wild accusations and long before you ever heard of Adepticon there were good players who said the same thing you are saying now. CRYING AND WHINING ABOUT SOFT SCORES!!!!!!!! Is that clear enough for you? Now that we all know where you are coming from you can get down off your Martyr Complex.

Years ago I was the one bitching about soft scores and so was my team. You are not the only one and you can be quite now. Valid... puh-lease.
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Postby biztheclown » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:26 pm

/cunningly sidesteps to avoid soft score "debate"

The chess clock thing is a really interesting idea. Let's find a sponsor!
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Postby Matthias » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:31 pm

Sorry, but I just don't see how a couple of posts addressing game length time and/or number of turns in said games (mainly because the addition of large Ork armies) has anything to do with the Team Tournament and how it has "grown to huge unwieldy proportions". Those are issues with the game, individual playstyle and points vs time. I still find the original statement to be inaccurate and purposely misleading.
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Postby blood angel » Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:57 am

Fred.. you're a trip and clearly exercising a little arm chair courage. In the effort to stay on topic and civil I will not be responding to you publicly. If you'd like to continue to help nail me to the cross please use PMs.

Thanks!
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Postby Wild_Bill » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:31 am

@ Matt

My comments previously were not meant to be a bash. Nor were they aimed at the Team Tournament alone.

They are fact and problems that any large tournament faces. Even the Grand Tournaments get those comments every year. The GT tries to staff 1 rules judge for every 20 players. I don't think Adepticon has been able to get that good of a ratio because more people would rather play. Again not a bash, but a fact. Given the choice who wouldn't rather play a game?

You can't possible think all the criticism and congrats happen only here on the forums, that's just naive. Believe it or not I still socialize with many gamers outside of the forums. And people tell you things there that they aren't willing to post, probably because of the persecution that follows. People are already fretting over the possible seeding of 1st round opponents based on local ratings. While that might be a back handed compliment. Its very easy for them to be concerned about how they would be treated if they go labeled a whiner or complainer. Personally I don’t care. If you got a grudge against me because of past falling out, fine whatever. I’m over it and moved on and even offered up a suggestion to help make Adepticon better. But you’ve skipped right over that and failed to even acknowledge it. I promoted Adepticon 2008 and helped several teams & individuals prepare. So yeah I have direct feedback from people who played at the con.

Am I going to make a list of who said what? A list of the positive comments and the negative comments. Nope. If they want to step forward and post their feelings and thoughts they will. If they want to vent or rave in person they will. Most people aren’t as direct about stuff as I am. Which is probably why you feel I’m making this stuff up, but I’m not. As it was already stated (and it’s no big secret) you can’t please all the people all the time. I just made a suggestion about how it might be possible to add a new twist in hopes to please more of them. Take it for what it is, or don’t.
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Postby Matthias » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:50 am

I am simply defending a convention that tons of people have working exceedingly hard at over the years against misleading and false statements. Every year there are concerns and every year we spend 7+ months talking about those concerns, running primers, getting people involved, and addressing said concerns...that process will continue.

First off - I fully recognize there are unspoken issues floating around out there - so to anyone out there that has an issue with how something was run or done at the convention but does not wish to post about it on the forums - please feel free to e-mail me directly at adeptuswindycity (@) gmail.com and I will do everything I can answer your concerns on a personal level or point you in the right direction to someone who can. It is important to address everything and talk to people directly involved not via a surrogate whose comments are laced with a negative passive aggressiveness towards this convention.

Bill - you have dumped on AdeptiCon and AWC multiple ties over the past few years and for me to believe you are somehow now a promoter or champion of the convention...you are right I would have to be naive.

Now back to the CONSTRUCTIVE part...

I think it is time to put together a list of valid concerns in the simplest of terms so over the next few months people can begin to look into improving the issues, I'll start the list from what I have gleamed in the past few weeks:

1. Theme Judging. This is a recognized concern by all involved and has been the #1 talked about subject. Along with what has already been posted here, a number of people are currently compiling their thoughts for discussion. There will be a change regarding this in 2009.

2. Hotel Parking/Food Prices. This dust hasn't settled yet, and right now we unsure where 2009 will occur. We are considering new spaces, but the Crowne Plaza is still a very viable option. We not sure how much weight we have with them at this point, but *IF* we stay there we will flex every negotiating muscle we have. As an example - we worked with the Marriott after our first year there about increasing food options and lowering prices. They gave it a shot and everyone was better off for it.

3. Point Size of Games/Time Allotted. Certainly something we can look at and take a few polls about over the next 6 months.

4. Returning Winning Armies.

5. First Round Seeding. First off let me state again: This was not done this year AT ALL save in the 40K Team Tournament as described above. If this was ever done in years past it is no longer the case and will not be the case going forward. Never, ever, never were players ranked on 'perceived skill'. This one is answered save the 40K TT, which along with a Theme Judging overhaul will be receiving a good going over.

6. Team Names. There has been some unfounded rumors about us holding teams back because of their name. This is 110% untrue. Your team could could sound like a line of dialogue from Al Swearengen and no one will ever dock you points for it.

7. Paint Judging. While always a subjective/imperfect science when combined with how people personally perceive their work/value the time they invested...there have been few rumblings this year and more of the low groan here or there. One thing that people have asked to see return in the Best Army (and Favorite Opponent) vote. Much of this discussion goes hand in hand with Theme, what is logistically possible in the larger tournaments (for both players and judges) and how much weight is put on those things.

Some things are simply out of our control. Bad sportsmanship, undiscovered cheating, American Airlines.

Let's try to finish the list above and then move those issues to perhaps a new thread for discussion over the coming months.
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Postby Redbeard » Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:57 am

Matthias wrote:2. Hotel Parking/Food Prices. This dust hasn't settled yet, and right now we unsure where 2009 will occur. We are considering new spaces, but the Crowne Plaza is still a very viable option. We not sure how much weight we have with them at this point, but *IF* we stay there we will flex every negotiating muscle we have. As an example - we worked with the Marriott after our first year there about increasing food options and lowering prices. They gave it a shot and everyone was better off for it.


If the tradeoff is that they will lower prices a little in exchange for a stricter approach to the no-outside-food/beverages, then I say keep it how it was this year. 8 bucks for a Bud is a lot, but it's nice to know I can buy real beer somewhere and bring it with me.

One thing that people have asked to see return in the Best Army (and Favorite Opponent) vote. Much of this discussion goes hand in hand with Theme, what is logistically possible in the larger tournaments (for both players and judges) and how much weight is put on those things.


I think that, really, what people want to see is less secrecy. I understand it's a lot of work, and something that realistically cannot be done at the event, but if a post could be made after the event that showed the breakdown for team or individual paint and theme scores, and players-choice vote tallys, there would be less overall concern about fairness.

It would also really help those of us who are trying to improve our scores to know what the judges liked and what they found lacking in our offerings.
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