Questions, Concerns, and Suggestions

The place to discuss all that was! Visit the AdeptiCon website (www.adepticon.org) for past coverage, event results and photos!

Postby Redbeard » Sun Apr 20, 2008 6:37 pm

Nidzilla517 wrote:Several Hundred hours??? come on..are you kidding me??? I can see making the board, but the list?


You seem bitter. Yes, it takes several hundred hours to paint an army - at least to paint an army well enough to win any sort of prize at a major tournament. I've spent upwards of 20 hours on individual models before. Why should I "retire" that model until I'm ready to?
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Postby Inquisitor_Malice » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:21 pm

Nidzilla517 wrote: Several Hundred hours??? come on..are you kidding me??? I can see making the board, but the list?

I guess opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one.

I forgot the winner gets What??? more models?


Nope - not kidding at all. I know my chaos force has 700-800 hours in modeling/sculpting/painting on it. It was used for 1/4 of our teams force two years ago and half of our team last year (in which it received top painting points). It actually takes far less work to make the board than it does to paint the guys.
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Postby blood angel » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:56 pm

Primarch wrote:Those theme points really add up! My team lost the overall TT title by 1 point, and the only area we were really down to the overall winners was our theme score.

The one thing that confused me, was the difference in scoring from last year. For example, our team had a horrible paint job last year and scored a 31 for painting. We had barely painted display boards, and scored a 35 in theme.


This year, our paint job, was WAY better than last(having learned our lesson) and yet we only scored a 34 for painting. While we didnt have a combined display board, something you CANNOT win the TT without, we added a Banner, a huge fluff packet, and alot of other things, and somehow, we only scored a 26 on theme this year.


In a nutshell, we put in alot more effort on painting and theme this year, and scored lower overall. Our battle points put us in contention, but wasnt enough to overcome such a low theme score.


If someone in the know could explain a little bit of that to me, we might have a better shot at fixing it for next year.


As for everything else, love Adepticon, and we will be back every year, even though not everything was perfect, its by far the best event in the country.

One day, the original team from Atlanta, will win that TT, bet on it.



Clay


Just so this isn't lost in the shuffle..

Really - our paint and theme scores took a serious hit despite truck loads of man hours spent on our displays, fluff book (17 pages - full bleed - original text and artwork, full color with pictures of the actual figures being used), banner, full painted figures (which i'd be happy to post pictures of) so knowing some specifics about what is judged, what the judges look for and 'how to max out these areas' would be ideal.


I'd like to avoid the cost and effort of making all these nice things if its not going to be judged or contribute to our success.

If anyone from the organizer crew would like to view our fluff PDF or see pictures from our armies and display boards or read the original text I wrote (and had in a plexi glass display as well as a lose copy to hand to the judged) that explained our army theme please let me know.

-paul
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Postby Courtjester17 » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:33 pm

Just want to say thank you to all the staff and everyone from around the country that came to play. I don't reall have any complaints with anything that went on, nor do I care if a team uses the same army year after year. The one thing I would like to see be implemented is a limit of the size of display boards. Personally I think things are getting out of control when a board starts to take full tables in order to display them. Not only does it take up space that can be used for gaming some of these huge boards are used to actually move the army between games. Making it harder to move around when a guy is holding a board he can barely carry. Then he has to set the board down which means all the terrain gets pushed around and leads to the people who have complained in this thread about the positioning of terrain.

Lastly it kinda makes it unfair to people travelling from afar that are flying in or driving with limited space they are unable to compete against local people or people travellign with huge vans that can transport tables worth of just displays. I would like to see something along the lines of max 18"x18" per 1000 points or at most 24"x24". Not sure how others feel on this but thats my only complaint.
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Postby Nidzilla517 » Sun Apr 20, 2008 9:50 pm

Inquisitor_Malice wrote:
Nidzilla517 wrote: Several Hundred hours??? come on..are you kidding me??? I can see making the board, but the list?

I guess opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one.

I forgot the winner gets What??? more models?


Nope - not kidding at all. I know my chaos force has 700-800 hours in modeling/sculpting/painting on it. It was used for 1/4 of our teams force two years ago and half of our team last year (in which it received top painting points). It actually takes far less work to make the board than it does to paint the guys.


Yeah, painting does take alot of time. Kudos to you and your team for top honors. We are using my whole army next year so they are getting a complete makeover. I will not take 800 hrs. out my year to paint them again. We had a pretty damn good army this year and still didn't get as good a score as we thought we wouldv'e. I guess we are gonna get a girl and let her wear a short skirt and the works, and hope for the best.
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Time

Postby DragonScythe » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:29 pm

Time appears to be the key issue I am noticing here. Time to set up armies for judging for the paint scheme and time to get them judged. Time to set up armies at the beginning of a battle and time to read over any rules your opponent has in his army that are not standard, i.e the Relictors from White Dwarf, which not all will be familiar with.

I was not at this Adepticon, but I have been at a previous one, and it did seem a little rushed in the morning before the Team Tournament. Not all issues of time can be dealt with, such as stalling opponents and lists and wargear not understood. What can be fixed for time?
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retireing armies and the like

Postby warprat13 » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:30 pm

In no way should a army be retired. Good armys do not just fall off trees. They take months and even years to paint build boards for create fluff ect. If the rules say they can take awards more than once more power to them. I don't feel that a army that is less nicly painted and has less theme and more importantly less points overall should win because the better team won last year. That is poop! sounds too much like affermative action to me. Read your sheets understand how you are going to be judged and work at it the best you can! And hey you still gotta play well before you are gonna win squat! Lets not forget that all that jazz that Phil kelly was talking about new rules and changing the game ect. Armies have to evolve or the players will have to adapt if they are still gonna win tournys he was talking about stuff taht was going to CHANGE THE WAY WE PLAY THE GAME for the better! So heck if somone can play next year and win enough games with an outdated army list from last editions rules I VOTE THAT WE GIVE THEM A SPECIAL AWARD!!!
If you do get ahold of me at next years tourny and i will at least buy you a beer. they would have to be some kinda general to pull off solid wins after the rules changes that it sounded like are coming up.
or maybe so everyone gets a prize next year instead of the cool grab bag of goodies we all got we could all get suky participation ribbons so i still feel like a winner or is that weiner
Ahhh rant complete
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Postby GregSwanson » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:07 am

My one suggestion is in the area of theme for the team tournament. I noticed a lot of complaining about scores and rankings and confusion to as how to they were arrived at. Maybe there needs to be a list of categories for next year. in each category you could get 0 to 7 lets say. For example display base if you have one you get at least a one and go for there. There needs to be a finite list of categories and leave maybe one for misc (i am sure that next year someone will come with something no one anticipated) and one for wow factor/judge's discretion. That way everyone will know what the judges are looking for/at. That might eliminate some of the cries of hometown bias.
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Postby WC_Dave » Mon Apr 21, 2008 12:08 am

To coordinate 4 armies paint scheme, technique and theme is very hard. The amount of time and effort involved is insane. An army like Checkmate Hobbies was top notch. Why retire it? Years ago the GTs had a rule weer if you won your army(codex) was retired for 3 years. Should this be the case here? No. Too much time and effort is involved. If they deserved to win regardless of the previous year, than damnit, they should.

My only suggestion would be to have a painting sheet available for participants to view before the tournament. Especialy if more than one person is judging. I will admit that some scores looked rather low or high from my opinion, so this wouls allieviate that concern.
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Postby goatboy » Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:33 am

I'm not sure that I would agree with a set list for what gets you points for theme.

Two scenarios play out to me:

1. The set list is not posted for other gamers to get access to. This would provide an unfair result with the adepticon council and others who know them playing in the team tournament with an unfair advantage. (Although, they are the ones putting in tons of hours and manpower to get this event up and running. That should merit for something more.)

2. The set list is posted for all on the adepticon website. BORING!!!!! It seems that it would take all the fun away if all I have to do is bring xy and z and my points are maxed.

I kind of like having some leeway with how theme is judged. If team a brings a flag that they slapped some logo on and brought and said, "Here's my banner.", should they get the same amount of points as the team that spent a lot of hours sewing their own banner into a great design.

I can see both points of view on the argument of a theme set list. I just don't want the hobby to be douched up by something that can totally take the fun and surprise out of it.
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Postby Centurian99 » Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:04 am

WC_Dave wrote:To coordinate 4 armies paint scheme, technique and theme is very hard. The amount of time and effort involved is insane.


Try coordinating efforts when nobody lives in the same city, the closest members live 6 hours away from each other, you've got teammates in CA, MI, and FL. ;)
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Postby Green Blow Fly » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:29 am

My team mates were in NC and Florida (Tampa, Orlando, and Miami). Two of us were able to get in one practice game before Adepticon.

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Postby GregSwanson » Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:46 am

Obviously thats why there is a points differential in the category. The people the just slapped the flag together get a 1 while the person who hand sewed theirs and took a lot of time get a seven. The problem is that people now are accusing the locals and council members of having an advantage.
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Postby Celthulhu » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:00 am

There is a thread in the Painting and Hobby section of these forums that addresses what the Paint Judges look for in a well painted army. If you're really interested in great appearance scores, there were some great tips.
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Postby Matthias » Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:06 am

Nidzilla517 wrote:Yeah, painting does take alot of time. Kudos to you and your team for top honors. We are using my whole army next year so they are getting a complete makeover. I will not take 800 hrs. out my year to paint them again. We had a pretty damn good army this year and still didn't get as good a score as we thought we wouldv'e. I guess we are gonna get a girl and let her wear a short skirt and the works, and hope for the best.


This confuses Painting and Theme. They completely separate scores and are NOT judged together at all.

Painting looks at the models and models only. See my post like 500 pages back.
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