New bug codex universally panned

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New bug codex universally panned

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:06 pm

The new Tyranid codex comes out Saturday, but leaked pictures of the Spanish book is all over the Internet. For all intents the book is known as we have the pictures of all the pages and the cries of Tyranid players worldwide are deafening.

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2014/01/ ... -time.html

Here is a recap by Mike Brandt the TO of Nova and a pretty level headed guy. He was one of the guys who were trying to keep people from jumping off the ledge a week ago as the Tyranid rumors started to trickle in. Now that we have seen the whole book he has changed his tune. It is a pretty good analysis.

The one thing I do not understand. If the Bugs are out of synapse range, then everyone even fearless models have to take a leadership check. If they fail there is a 50% chance the unit will attack itself at its own strength equal to the number of models. Not all units do this, just the ones most people take. Not good. Ad synapse models are much harder to keep alive in this book since none of them can ever get better than a 2+ save or an invulnerable save (except Zoenthropes).

Another trick is that most units have had a points reduction. However special abilities, like poison, furious charge and fleet which these units used to have for free are now bought for the unit. If you buy the upgrades the units used to have for free, then the points reduction is eliminated and in the case of Termagants their points actually go up.

Just read Mikes recap of the codex. It looks like the Tyranids will not solve the Taudar problem of 6th edition. Heck they don't look like they will solve the Ork problem. :wink: I say that but maybe the Chicagoland area doesn't have a Taudar problem at all. At the last Draxtar tourney I'm not sure if there was a Taudar player in attendance. That sort of self regulating of army composition is applauded by this old gamer. Just be warned that I have a full Broadside missileside unit built along with accompanying Riptide and Buff Commander all set to join his Eldar friends on the field. The first guy to break the glass and field Taudar could open the floodgates. It's like an intense John Woo movie in the Chicagoland tourney seen.
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby seahawk » Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:12 am

Meh, the first tournament at Draxtar featured a Taudar player, so the gates of Jerkville are already open wide and accepting residents. ;)

My feelings are that the new codex will just be more of the same ol' same ol', but structured differently. As you said, we must now buy the upgrades we used to have, making the "reduced point cost" a myth.

Personally, I love how Genestealers and Rippers went up in cost but got worse. Dafuq? :P
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby YeezyMozart » Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:58 am

Man I really wish I saw this before I bought that horrible book.
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby rosco » Sat Jan 11, 2014 1:43 pm

the bunker had a open copy on Thursday so I took a peak. I still have 90 something stealers that will hide in the space hulk box. they even said everyone that looked at the book was not happy. one of their guys was about to buy a swarm or 2 to finish his army, then he saw the book and declared his nids will be on ebay soon. I'm not really surprised NOBODY took credit for that book.
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby Chubs » Sat Jan 11, 2014 8:36 pm

So what IS good with the new nids?
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Sun Jan 12, 2014 2:55 am

Chubs wrote:So what IS good with the new nids?


On the surface a bunch of units are cheaper. Carnifex is 40pts cheaper. Tyrannofex is 60pts cheaper. Flyrant is about 30pts cheaper. Zoenthropes and lictors are 10-15 pts cheaper. Nothing stands out as a must have unit. Maybe diversity is the name of the game. I will say this, if you had 1850pts of bugs before, then you are hurting now. The 5e builds are not good.

It appears Tyranids have all the tools needed to defeat today's meta. They have units that can combat the units in the top builds. I'm just not sure how to get them all into one army and have them work together to get the job done.

Exocrines have lots of str 7 ap 2 shots. That's good against broadsides and centurions.

The Horror is a Psychic power that forces a pinning check at -2. Tau will hate that. Riptides are leadership 9 and are not fearless.

All the little Gants with poison is the bane of Wraithknights everywhere.

Shadow in the Warp makes every Psyker within 12" minus 3 to leadership. Not good for Daemons that rely on psychic powers. Deathleaper still makes a guy minus d3 to leadership. Combine the two and not even Belakor will be getting many powers off. The minus 3 to leadership applies to everything a Psyker does not just psychic tests. A Psyker will be minus 3 to leadership on morale checks and pinning checks also. So a Farseer under the Shadow of the Warp and hit with the horror will take a pinning check at -5 in total.

Several models can get haywire shots including Tyrants and Tervigons. The Crone is a flyer that vector strikes at str 8. The Hive Guards Impaler cannons ignore all cover now. These things help to take out Wave Serpents without having to resort to close combat.

The venomthrope now gives every model within 6" shrouding. Giving it to one model confers it to the rest of the unit so all 30 hormagants do not need to be in range to get +2 to cover.

The Mawloc can deep strike on enemy models as usual and everyone under him will take a str 6 ap 2 hit with ignores cover. If everything does not die under the Mawloc, then he hits them a second time. If after the second time there is still something left he gets a deep strike mishap. You have two chances to clear the space under the Mawloc when he arrives.

The Catalyst is a psychic power which gives Feel no Pain to your unit and one other within 12". So you get two FnP for one power.

I like Paroxym. It reduces WS and BS by d3 and it has a 24" range. It can shutdown the shooting of Wraithknights, Obliterators, Centurions, etc... real fast.

These are all stand alone benefits right now. The trick is getting all to work in one list. The more I look at the codex the more I get the feeling that there is no coherent theme or idea running through the book. It's almost like 6 different guys made rules for 6 different units and they were just added together to make the codex.

Guy 1 - I'll make a bug that hurts this

Guy 2 - I'll make a rule that hurts that

Guy 3 - I'll make a unit that hurts this

And then they came together around a conference table and put them all into one book called the Tyranid codex. For example. There are some good long range artillery pieces in here, but all of them shutdown out of synapse range real fast. There is no synapse artillery bug to control them. Someone else with synapse has to remain behind to keep the artillery bugs in line.

In the end I THINK there are some good builds in here. They will not look like the other 6e top builds though. Right now in 6e all the rage are army lists who take minimum sized/pointed scoring units who hide until end game while the rest of the list is maximum carnage. The bug codex can in no way make any list of any kind that can do this same tactic. I have a feeling that most of the angst we see out there about this book comes from this. When you look at the book and try to make a list like the top 6e lists you can not create that framework with the bug codex.
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby blk Ice » Sun Jan 12, 2014 1:12 pm

Just a little something for you to read. http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thr ... =undefined
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby seahawk » Sun Jan 12, 2014 10:17 pm

Exocrines have lots of str 7 ap 2 shots. That's good against broadsides and centurions.
At only 24", they'll nearly always be outranged and killed before that happens (especially against Tau).

All the little Gants with poison is the bane of Wraithknights everywhere.
Poison now costs 50-100% more, meaning this was in the 5th ed. codex already.

Several models can get haywire shots including Tyrants and Tervigons.
At 8" and one shot. The Hive Guard have extra shots at least...at 18". With a 6" move and no transports, I doubt I'll ever take the Electroshock Grubs.

If after the second time there is still something left he gets a deep strike mishap.
Only if his base is actually blocked; he may arrive within 1" of enemy models! :D

I like Paroxym. It reduces WS and BS by d3 and it has a 24" range.
2x the range but much worse than the 5th ed. version. Still, one of the powers I like a lot!


The psychic powers in general are pretty awesome. I think a shooty flying tyrant will still be the way to go (despite me never owning one or wanting to use one), with Onslaught allowing them to get shots into side/rear armor on turn 1.

Unupgraded gaunts is the only way to use them now, so that one can afford more upgrades on the monsters.
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby DaGrippster » Mon Jan 13, 2014 11:42 am

This doesn't all sound bad, some strange changes for sure though. I think it just isn't what people want; it's not an easy button fix to the leading armies. If it were, then we would just have a tyranid problem instead of a tau problem. Kind of like the old lady who swallowed a fly.

I don't have the book yet, is the guy who gives shrouding an independent character? Are tervigons any good still?

If I wanted a list that was 180 gaunts and the shrouding guy (720 pts +shrouding guy), what would a good rest of the list look like out of this book?
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Mon Jan 13, 2014 5:39 pm

DaGrippster wrote:This doesn't all sound bad, some strange changes for sure though. I think it just isn't what people want; it's not an easy button fix to the leading armies. If it were, then we would just have a tyranid problem instead of a tau problem. Kind of like the old lady who swallowed a fly.

I don't have the book yet, is the guy who gives shrouding an independent character? Are tervigons any good still?

If I wanted a list that was 180 gaunts and the shrouding guy (720 pts +shrouding guy), what would a good rest of the list look like out of this book?



Venomthropes give shrouding. They are not IC's. Tervigons are more expensive and can only be level 1 psykers. When they die they explode Gants 12" away this edition and not 6" like the last edition. They also lost the ability to give poison and furious charge to nearby Gants. You have to pay 2pts for each ability to give those to normal Gants. That brings 180 Gants up to 1440pts

180 Gants would all be str 3 with no poison and no furious charge. One shrouding guy is 45pts and can't attach to anyone. You can take a group of 3 of them for 135pts and they sit there with cover, T4 and 2 wounds each. They are as hard to kill as a Herald of Nurgle, but can't attach to a unit and can't Look out Sir. Realistically short work for Serpent shields or buff commanders.

To be dreadfully honest the Tyranid book might be a lateral move in power AT BEST. Most likely it is an overall downgrade in power from the 5e book. I won a 22 man tourney as late as November with my 5e Tyranids. What I used in that list is mostly gone now in 6e.
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby DaGrippster » Mon Jan 13, 2014 10:22 pm

Hmm, dissapointing. So, who has some Ork or IG rumors for me?
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby Lord Krungharr » Tue Jan 14, 2014 10:24 pm

Versus SOTW, Tzeentch Daemon psykers will at least cancel it out for a Ld 9 (on LOCs and DPs and Fatey). Of course they're screwed on Instability checks!

Does every new Tyranid model have SOTW? Or just synapse creatures and/or the big bugs?

I heard that they lost the Spore Pod transport thing because ChapterHouse Studio makes one, and GW took away their ability to sell them by nixing any rules for them.
And I heard that GW just got sick of or too busy for playtesting the rules and just had to go ahead with publishing them. I sincerely hope that doesn't happen with IG or Orks, though I don't see much that Chapterhouse has they can get rid of model-wise. But the playtesting thing is worrisome. But Orks can just have a bunch of random tables to roll on for crazy s#&T, and IG are human so their thinking and abilities should be relatively straight forward (just expecting expensive Vendettas and no squadrons of them available).
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby seahawk » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:07 am

Anything with Synapse has SitW.

They did get rid of the Parasite, Ymgarls, Doom, and Pod because of Chapterherpes, which is a shame.
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Wed Jan 15, 2014 11:29 am

Yakface on Dakka posted some inciteful comments about the Tyranid Codex. I'm going to copy and paste his post below.




What I see when I look at the Tyranids codex is that GW has completely painted themselves into a corner with this edition, allies and supplementary codexes.

When you put out a codex that isn't allowed to ally with anyone, all of a sudden they have a tremendous issue...the disparity between the types of armies that competitive 40k players use these days is so wide between what we would call a 'fluffy theme list' that it's almost like two different games. There was a time when you'd go to a tournament and you'd see the guys who were playing army lists that they built just cause they liked the way the army looked, and those guys would get their butts handed to them, but the armies weren't THAT far from being viable. Now, with allies, and supplementary codexes allying with their parent codex, etc, you're getting insane special rules deathstar combos, 2++ re-rolls, etc...the 'casual' army guy just gets blown out of the water now.

I honestly don't think that GW even recognizes all the insane combos that combining codexes provides, or if they do, they just don't care like they don't care about how stupid D weapons are for no additional points cost.

So against any single codex, I think the Tyranids at least have some fighting chance...but when you run up against a Broadside unit with a Buffmander, you're now talking about shooting units that can obliterate one MC a turn (pretty much no matter what). So what the heck does GW do at this point since Tyranids don't ally with anyone (for fluff reasons)? Do they make the codex so amazingly powerful that it can walk over most over single-codex builds to compensate? If so, what happens if someone is playing in a non-ally setting or GW later goes and cancels or limits allies? All of a sudden then the Tyranid codex is perhaps *too* powerful.

The other suggestion was that they should have just let the Tyranids ally with themselves, because all of a sudden the way to 'balance' things is to completely break the force org chart and that's the *only* way to save the day?

It's just nuts. GW have broken their game.

You can still have fluffy themed games as long as both players purposely agree to play that way.
Or you can play competitively (with most armies), using allies, etc, but those armies sure don't look like anything you've ever seen or read about in GW's background.


And that's really what it comes down to. Any game is going to be competitive because players have access to the same units, so they can always find similar types of things to pit against each other and play in a competitive environment. But those competitive armies do not match the background of the game anymore, and once you've hit the point where your game rules fail to represent the fiction the game is drawn from, then you have failed as a game.
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Re: New bug codex universally panned

Postby Turtle » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:00 pm

lol he says nids have a chance against any one codex, but then says that broadsides with a buffmander blow them away....

so nids can take on any book singly....unless its tau with tau
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