Apocalypse 2

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Apocalypse 2

Postby YeezyMozart » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:38 pm

The new apoc 2 book has brought something new to the field.

For each unit they have a stamp for Apoc or Wharhammer 40k.

If you read the book it states in the begining that all warhammer 40k stamps are intended for regular games of 40k.

Is there any chance that we might see some changes in tourament rules I wonder?

This would mean a lot of units would now be legal in a tournament setting... They have also downplayed a lot of the units in the book, which leads me to beleive that they would be legal.

The Lusios pattern drop pod is a prime example of nurfing rules. Its no where near as tempting now. Niether is the Lifta Droppa but these are both Warhammer 40K Stamped.
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Postby seahawk » Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:53 pm

Just because FW approves of their use in 40k doesn't mean GW (or your opponent) does. It's basically just a clarifier for those who can't tell the difference as to which units are "balanced" for standard games as opposed to Apoc games.

That being said, I have wanted to see FW units available in tournaments from the beginning of time.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Dec 08, 2011 3:28 pm

GW could make a little coin by stating in the 6th edition rulebook that army units come from the army codex and the FW Apoc 2 rulebook. Now a ton of people that play 40k would go buy the FW Apoc 2 rulebook for the rules for those legal units.
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Thu Dec 08, 2011 8:11 pm

I have taken a closer look at the Apoc 2 book. On page 3 it states "these are official units suitable for standard sized games of Warhammer 40,000 as well."

This is in reference to the units thatvare 'stamped' Warhammer 40,000.

On page 2 in the credits it says the book is published in Great Britain in 2011 by Forge World, Games Workshop, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham, NG7 2WS.

It goes on to state:

copyright Games Workshop Limited 2011, etc...



My question is why isn't these units official. The book says they are. The book is published by Games Workshop.

I am talking about the units that are stamped Warhammer 40,000
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Postby seahawk » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:28 pm

"As with all our models these should be considered 'official,' but owing to the fact they may be unknown to your opponent, it's best to make sure they are happy to play a game using Forge World models before you start."

"Official" is in quotation marks, indicating its quasi nature. All of their models are official, not just the 40k-stamped ones. And as indicated, they are still only opponent's permission (asking if they'd like to play against FW is essentially the same q).
"Serious sport has nothing to do with fair play. It is bound up with hatred, jealously, boastfulness, disregard of all rules and sadistic pleasure in witnessing violence. In other words, it is war, minus the shooting." - George Orwell
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Postby Depayen » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:32 pm

I have all ready proposed this question in Adepticon format 2012 and it was shot down.
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Postby Turtle » Fri Dec 09, 2011 1:07 am

I think the "unknown to your opponent" thing is kind of silly. Does that mean that if I don't read the new necron codex and don't know what they do my opponent isn't allowed to play necrons?
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Postby Generalissimo_Fred » Fri Dec 09, 2011 9:42 am

I agree that the 'unknown to your opponent' excuse holds little water. I have heard that since the book isn't widely available it's unfair. But I got my book for the Geneva GW store. That and the new Sisters of Battle rules were in a monthly magazine. I can't get those rules at any store, but they don't hold the same stigma as rules published by GW and stamped official 40k rules.
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Postby YeezyMozart » Fri Dec 09, 2011 11:55 am

Official...Telling your opponent don't you pople play with friends outside of tournaments?

I just want to know if they will be legal in tournaments? Thats all the official I need?

Depayen wrote:I have all ready proposed this question in Adepticon format 2012 and it was shot down.


What exactly did you propose? The Warhammer 40k Stamped units?
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Postby Depayen » Fri Dec 09, 2011 2:44 pm

This is what I asked:
Looking for some clarification. With the new Apocalypse book out it has classifications saying if Apocalypse, Apocalypse formation and 40K saying at what level these items can be played at. With these items that are classified as 40K be eligible for the 40K Championship


Here was the reply;

From the 40K Championship rules:
Forge World/Imperial Armor units are NOT allowed in the Warhammer 40K Championships; however players may still use their Forge World models to represent a unit from their codex.

For other events that allow FW units ( 40K Gladiator, 40K Team Tourney, The Friendly, etc.. ) we will as we have done in the past publish a comprehensive list of FW units with references to the most current rules that must be used.
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Postby muwhe » Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:58 pm

Ok, First off, on a personal note. I have consistently been one of the strongest advocates of using Forgeworld models in events. My basement is a testament to that fact and may be declared a resin superfund cleanup site.

I have been on this Forgeworld train a longtime. I am happy to finally see the clarification confirming what only made sense. This clarification may move a number of folks from the “no forgeworld” or “Forgeworld does not equal Games Workshop” camp but as evident by the threads that have appeared on various websites, here on AWC being the latest it is not a magic bullet that changes opinions overnight.

In my mind the clarification does not fundamentally change anything with regard to Forgeworld models use in games or events. Your opponent or event organizer still has the final say. Which pretty much has been status quo. AdeptiCon has allowed and continues to allow Forgeworld models in the majority of our events.

A bit of historical background at one time we allowed Forgeworld in the championship. We had a Team Tourney survey a couple years back that we felt clearly showed the community divided on the inclusion of Forgeworld models. http://dev.adepticon.org/2010/09/2010-w ... ament.html

This clarification may change some of those opinions but I also think a number of the arguments for not including Forgeworld in the 40K championship are valid. Notice I did not say I agree with them but folks on different sides of an issue can accept alternative viewpoints. I am certainly not someone that ascribes to the notion that there is such a thing as “real 40K or rulebook 40k”. The inclusion or exclusion of Forgeworld models just adds or removes another variable in the game. Good players can and will take into account the format and both can be “competitive” in the context of the rules of the event.

But, certainly if you look at what Forgeworld offers the case can be made that certain armies make out significantly better given the wide variety of Forgeworld offerings available to them compared to other armies. Given time, I think you will see Forgeworld address this concern and the gap of offerings will narrow significantly but just as with Games Workshop .. the Imperial and Space Marine offerings will always be plentiful cause they ..sell.

Back to AdeptiCon 2012, allowing Forgeworld models in the 40K Championship for 2012 would be a fundamental change to the event format that people have already committed to and signed up in a good faith understanding of the rules. People have been play testing and building forces given this understanding. To alter those rules at this point I am not sure is in the best interest of the attendees or the event. It is certainly something to consider for 2013, at which time we will also have 6th edition and a number of additional Forgeworld publications to take into account.

Forgeworld model use is allowed in the 40K Friendly, 40K Team Tourney, and 40K Gladiator. Additionally, Warhammer Forge will be used for the first time on the Warhammer Fantasy Battle side. So I am comfortable as events go .. AdeptiCon is on the leading edge of allowing Forgeworld use.

I have seen a number of things make print by Games Workshop only to be abandoned in short order. I don’t think that is the case with this new labeling for Forgeworld. I think this is only the beginning and hope this is the standard moving forward. But it is also not my first rodeo so I’m not sure that we want to adopt a standard until we see a track record and how things shake out over a couple of releases.
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Postby rosco » Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:14 am

i'm cool with it as long as the person brings the rules for what he's using be it a pick game or tourny.
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